Same Old Confusion: Safari OR Scorpio. Now Duster & XUV Making it Tougher!


Thread Starter #46
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I read some reviews which mentioned that xylo has a new gearbox mated to the e9 which makes it faster than scorpio with the 0-100 speeds .
Apart from that the lower overall weight of the xylo could be the reason for the lower timings.
The EST as far as i know is not ESP but anti roll bar which is now added in the xylo which were not present in them earlier.
Even the newer scorpio has those in them.
You are absolutely right superbad.

This is what I found on auto car
"Mechanically, the facelift is almost the same as the outgoing Xylo, except this E9 variant gets the 120bhp mHawk engine from the Scorpio. This engine comes mated to a new gearbox, the 5MT320. It uses detent pin technology and synchromesh even for reverse to smoother gearshifts and is still to debut on Scorpio. The layshaft bearings have also been changed for better efficiency. "

Guess this is responsible for the difference.

Now this has seriously left me with thoughts that probably this gearbox change is what, which is going to be changed in the rumored facelifted scorpio by diwali.

Not sure [confused]
 
Thread Starter #47
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Dont go sooooooo deep into these magazine reviews. At best, take them as a ready reckoner to compare cars.

Coming to the difference in acceleration timings, it can be various reasons -
1) Difference in weight, though its marginal
2) Aerodynamics
3) Testing conditions (Scorpio could have been tested in wet conditions)
4) Driver - a better driver could have been driving the Xylo
5) Finally, human error
You are right Raj.
The ultimate test is the TD which we take by our own-selves. I will therefore do the never thought before thing - "Test Driving a Xylo" [;)]

I did an extensive online research and this is what I found:

Xylo has the all new gearbox 5MT-320, which uses a detent pin and synchromesh even for the reverse.
Also due to this, the xylo's third can pull comfortably all the way till 120kmph and 5000 rpm.
Similarly its 5th can touch around 4000 rpm pretty soon and strike 170-175 easier than the scorpio. [frustration]

Now the point is that the same transmission has been said everywhere, to debut very soon on the scorpio. [Read it in articles dated january 2012]

SO this clearly specifies that there is very much possibility of this facelift thing in scorpio being rumored. I feel, even if it doesn't has cosmetic changes, it might get this new transmission.
Now the Scorpio model which is supposed to be released in 2014 cannot be the one going to be released with this gearbox, as that is going to be a completely transformed drive with even higher tuning setup of the engine.

Hence if Mahindra has said that this gearbox is to debut on the scorpio, then it has to be the current scorpio which might also have few interior and exterior changes and must be this is the change people are talking about in the scorpio speculated by diwali.

It has again become difficult as I planned to book a vehicle by september but now getting skeptical. [confused]

So what do you suggest at this dilemma ?
I already spoke to Mahindra and they agreed to give me a full black scorpio without those decals. [I didn't like the silver colour cladding and wanted a full black one]. They have said me to notify them as soon as I book a vehicle.
 
Thread Starter #48
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Scorpio is up for an update. I don't know exactly how long the new one will hit the market. As per my choice, I will opt for the Safari. I know niggles will come up, but it is IMO a better choice than Scorpio. The latter has a terrific engine. What bothers me is the ride quality and handling. Xylo being faster could be true but all that is possible in a straight line. Safaris will be faster than Xylos and Scoprios, given it has better handling characteristics. No offenses to Scorpio or Xylo owner though.
Do correct me if i am wrong.[:)]
About the update thing, you are right buddy!
Read my previous post and please share your views. I need to decide! [:)]

Now the all new scorpio speculated for 2014, it can be easily said considering Mahindra's delay in the XUV, [Test mules were spotted in 2010] that it will be in the market not before 2015. So lets not talk about it now as then we can go ahead with selling our current possession and buy it in case it turns out to be that great.

Regarding the current scorpio, in case it gets this new transmission, then its just to be a complete bliss, considering the potent gem of the engine it already has.

Safari and scorpio, I will just give my conclusions.

Safari's has its top end priced at a whole 1.75 lacs more than the parallel scorp [Also scorpio has much more gizmos]
[I am interested in a fully featured model]

Now had the safari been of the same price as the scorpio, I would have certainly gone ahead and bought it without further thoughts. But at this point it doesn't sound a VFM at all.

The other things [Justifying this compromise due to the fact that 1.75 lacs does matter]

Ride quality: A Blistein B6 once added to the scorpio with 255/60 R17 shoes, transforms its ride and handling drastically and makes it quite better than the safari. I can say this as I have driven a scorpio with blistein suspensions in Mumbai. The handling and control was much-much better than the stock scorpio and convincingly better than the safari.
Though this car had the stock tyres but I guess it was better as it left one stone unturned and I am sure with 255/60 R17s, this will improve even further. Moreover the safari's I have tested were also pure stock, so it gave my test a more unbiased edge.

Now safari, currently doesn't has any convincing suspension upgrade so we can't debate that what if we do the similar thing to a safari. As of now, we can't so no point speculating the obvious !
Tyres; obviously safari can have the similar 255s, but my tested vehicle with blistein had stock tires and was better than the safari with similar stock Bridgestones. SO this over-rides this debate as well!

CONCLUSION: An investent of 40k in shocks makes scorpio handle much better than safari with reduced body roll and increased handling dynamics!

Second Point Big Point, THE ROAD IMAGE!


Certainly safari has more of it. Must be because scorpios are sold 4000 units a month and safari only 900.

But I had my own plans, as for me frankly speaking, both the vehicles appeal equally.
Scorpio with more butch and masculine looks and safari with the power and gigantic image.

So I planned a full black scorpio [Not the two tone coloured one] without those decals; Mahindra has agreed to give one, with black films all over. "SCORPIO engraved on the cladding in blood red.
A very little blood red graphics [similar to scorpio limited edition's front bumper, not on the sides as it will make two much of red [;)]]
And a 17 inch hyper silver imposing 8J alloy wheels with fat rubbers protruding by around half inches from the wheel arches.
I am sure that this thing will have a terrific road image, giving the feel of power, which we obviously ecpect from these hefty SUVs.

The best part, All this mod done on a scorpio still costs 1 lac lesser in total than the stock safari.
Now this sounds a deal to me as this kind of scorpio will certainly have better road presence than the stock safari, which is even a lac costlier.

VERDICT:
Safari, undoubtedly fascinating SUV, but not at all a VFM.
I haven't mentioned the more niggles, poor resale value, and bad TATA ASS.

I would still second that, had SAFARI been equally priced as the Scorpio, I would have bought it, but at 1.75 lacs more, A BIG NO! Tata is simply robbing by doing this and have absurdly priced their vehicle [the difference between their own two GX and VX variants has no synchronization] which isn't worth what it is being given for. [13.9 lacs OTR]
 
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Are you ready to wait till Diwali? We have no concrete news of any upgrades in the Scorpio. It may or may not happen.

See, dont look at what is going to come. New cars are getting launched every month. If you keep waiting for your ideal car to launch, you will end up NEVER buying a car.

So buy what is available at the moment and enjoy it. However, if you are sure of a car being launched and you are aware of it's specs and pricing, then that's a different story...
 
Thread Starter #52
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The storme is coming though. Decide with this and the new refresh scorpio which is rumoured by diwali.
Are you ready to wait till Diwali? ...
Hello Guys!

I was just wondering about the possibility of going for a 4WD drive system after a recent incident.
Visited a farmer's land to negotiate some colonization project. I guess I was too brave to do this in my Honda City [Rather too stupid to try this during the rainy season]
Minutes later, I was stuck! [Though it wasn't mud, but just some slippery grass making the wheel spin. Finally the same old mighty muscular TRACTOR [Not the scorpio] came at my rescue and everything was fine.

This incident left me with ideas of going for a 4WD drive system. However my drives to such terrains is very limited and mostly due to any new land deal. [I have started a new Construction Business as well along with the good old service industry.]
However its very few such deals taking place so it could always be managed.

Now, is there any advantage of having a 4H in scorpio for tarmac drive ?

Also as I read, the 2WD in scorp has independent coil spring anti roll bar unlike the 4WD's independent torsion bar!

Now since there ain't any anti roll bar, does that mean that a 4WD scorpio swings more with higher body rolls than the 2WD one ?


Also what impact will it have once I go for Bilstein B6 in a 4WD. I have heard and tried 2WD with this upgrade which absolutely turned into a blissful drive. Does the similar holds for the 4WD or it can't even be upgraded to bilsteins ?

Waiting to hear from all auto gurus !!
 
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The weight distribution for the 4wd would be different, so the handling characteristics shall be different too.
Scorpios as well as other diesels have enough torque to handle non tarmac conditions. It is only when negotiating slush like conditions you would need a 4x4.
Also i have read reviews of the 4x4, and many have got their electronic shift to a mechanical for more reliability.

Another point to consider would be the waiting period. Since most 4x4 are made to order and you might then lose on discounts too.
 
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Also as I read, the 2WD in scorp has independent coil spring anti roll bar unlike the 4WD's independent torsion bar!

Now since there ain't any anti roll bar, does that mean that a 4WD scorpio swings more with higher body rolls than the 2WD one ?
Buying a Scorpio 4WD would be a dream for me. The Scorpio has 4WD in base LX variant and top end VLX variant. If I am buying a 4WD and intend to use it in harsh terrains, I will opt for the LX - a no nonsense 4WD SUV.

By the way, 4WD Scorpios are known to have a better ride quality that the 2WD Scorpios.
 
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Dear Asfar,
Let me confess that I haven't seen any one so close to my thoughts on automobile ambition, i.e. you want to drive fast, precise & still want to remain completely unaffected by what a unknown terrain can throw at you. Right?

Please do check/ double check the offset & backspace of your aspired rim sizes. The backspace should definitely vary with rim width but offset shouldn't i.e. centre of the wheels should remain same always, by which your car's weight should transfered to the ground.

Otherwise your suspension,alignment,axles & even chassis can take it's toll in the long run, which won't be felt at the early stages. I am sure you are much more knowledgeable & experienced than me, still pointing to make you more alert.

A REQUEST: Please take an extensive TD of STORME & then decide.

Thanks & Regards,

ROY
 
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Thread Starter #56
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Dear Asfar,
Let me confess that I haven't seen any one so close to my thoughts on automobile ambition, i.e. you want to drive fast, precise & still want to remain completely unaffected by what a unknown terrain can throw at you. Right?

Please do check/ double check the offset & backspace of your aspired rim sizes. The backspace should definitely vary with rim width but offset shouldn't i.e. centre of the wheels should remain same always, by which your car's weight should transfered to the ground.

Otherwise your suspension,alignment,axles & even chassis can take it's toll in the long run, which won't be felt at the early stages. I am sure you are much more knowledgeable & experienced than me, still pointing to make you more alert.

A REQUEST: Please take an extensive TD of STORME & then decide.

Thanks & Regards,

ROY
Hello Roy!
You guessed my cravings, Exactly Right!
I surely want good tarmac performance and still the peace of mind by having a muscular tough vehicle with enough road presence.
Now since this vehicle I am looking to purchase is going to be my prime mode of transportation, I have all the expectations from it.

About offset, that is what has been worrying me either.
I am looking for an online purchase of rims and have asked them to give me the offset ratings of the rims I am interested!
By the way are the offset ratings for the scorpio and the safari similar ?

As all the rims I have come across are said to be suitable for both the safari and the scorpio.

And I am sure Roy, that you must be equally acquaint and well-informed about what is to be done while upgrading our stock cars. [:)]

Buying a Scorpio 4WD would be a dream for me. The Scorpio has 4WD in base LX variant and top end VLX variant. If I am buying a 4WD and intend to use it in harsh terrains, I will opt for the LX - a no nonsense 4WD SUV.

By the way, 4WD Scorpios are known to have a better ride quality that the 2WD Scorpios.
Raj, it seems like you feel the VLX 4*4 to be not worth the price it is being asked for ? Why such specific reservations ?

And I feel you are right about a 4*4 having better ride quality.
Can this be attributed to the fact that Tata Safari has this independent, double wishbone with Torsion bar and is proven to have better ride quality than the scorpio! Now since this 4WD scorpio also has independent, torsion bar, it will give the similar feel. [However that double wishbone is missing; not sure what it is and how much difference it creates!]
My bigger concern is that since I would be changing to bilsteins, what effect will it have in either of the case.
My hunch says, that since these torsion or the anti roll bars aren't changed, hence the basic inherent difference in the ride quality will be retained by either of the models. [4WD with better ride quality]


Also i have read reviews of the 4x4, and many have got their electronic shift to a mechanical for more reliability.

Another point to consider would be the waiting period. Since most 4x4 are made to order and you might then lose on discounts too.
Superbad, does that mean that the performance of electronic 4*4 is not upto the mark ?
About waiting periods, might be! But again since I have asked for a full black car, they have said the waiting period to be 1 month anyway!
Discounts, will have to check that! Not sure if it will be given on the 4*4 as well.


Guys, Just one thought!
With its name, the anti roll bar sounds more like an arrangement to improve the ride quality by reducing these unnecessary rolls unlike the torsion bar.
Tham means even names can be deceiving. [;)]

I have been quoted a rate of Rs 10600 per tyre for Hankook Ventus AS RH07, for the size 255/60 R17. Is it reasonable ? [roll]

Found this!
A nice info for the beginners!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrRkXFpkMVM&playnext=1&list=PL839B1BEC379EA597&feature=results_main
 
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Raj, it seems like you feel the VLX 4*4 to be not worth the price it is being asked for ? Why such specific reservations ?
I dint mean the VLX 4WD is not value for money.

BUT - If I am buying a 4x4 Scorpio, I would want to take the vehicle to places where it is meant to go, I would like to torture it in extreme 4x4 conditions and I would even attempt to go some extreme places.

Now, in such treacherous conditions, it is better to have a simple and robust vehicle with bare minimum electronics for that added reliability. Painted body cladding and foot steps of the VLX would be a disadvantage in such conditions. Hence, I would opt for the basic LX 4x4.
 
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Dear asfer.

I am little worried about seeing your offroading aspiration with a same vehicle which you want to drive fast, with good enough handling. Although I haven't driven any tuned scorpio yet,but guess it will be good, as the m-hawk is getting more fuel boost by fooling it's ECU's programming of injection system.

IMO you will get better punch with the stock size & 235/65-17 tyre. Just may be you will get more cornering grip with wider tyres. I suppose it can create more problem in some situation as little slide would have helped Scorpio from toppling over.

Although I have very very little experience in driving still like to point you out the followings :

1. Although Scorpio is very reliable, but it got less stability at higher speed than comparable vehicle e,g. SAFARI.

2. For only speed handling purpose stick to 235/65R17, please don't try offroading, as I am very doubtful on suspension's capability of a heavy ladder frame chassis.

3.Scorpio is very vulnerable around 140.

4.Scorpio's offset - +55, which is not at all mod friendly. SAFARI's probably the same. Any positive offset won't give you almost any wider track for better cornering stability.

5.Please wait for the STORME.

Regards...
 
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Dear asfer.

I am little worried about seeing your offroading aspiration with a same vehicle which you want to drive fast, with good enough handling. Although I haven't driven any tuned scorpio yet,but guess it will be good, as the m-hawk is getting more fuel boost by fooling it's ECU's programming of injection system.

IMO you will get better punch with the stock size & 235/65-17 tyre. Just may be you will get more cornering grip with wider tyres. I suppose it can create more problem in some situation as little slide would have helped Scorpio from toppling over.

Although I have very very little experience in driving still like to point you out the followings :

1. Although Scorpio is very reliable, but it got less stability at higher speed than comparable vehicle e,g. SAFARI.

2. For only speed handling purpose stick to 235/65R17, please don't try offroading, as I am very doubtful on suspension's capability of a heavy ladder frame chassis.

3.Scorpio is very vulnerable around 140.

4.Scorpio's offset - +55, which is not at all mod friendly. SAFARI's probably the same. Any positive offset won't give you almost any wider track for better cornering stability.

5.Please wait for the STORME.

Regards...
I truly agree with many points you have quoted here Roy!
But I haven't been a enthusiast of offroading either. Also I don't think I will ever engage in any such event.
Its just that in case I possess a mighty beast like safari or the scorpio, I may try some dirt-kicking someday. :)

I was wondering about a scorpio 4*4 as I have heard that it has better ride quality than the 2*2 variant, just like even Raj posted here.
Not sure though!

Mostly I like spirited tarmac driving, but have had enough of it and met with a serious accident costing a 9 months old Fiesta go for a total loss claim. God's grace, I escaped it with minimal injuries.
Now everybody at my place started the SUV-bigger and stronger, Debate!
Somehow even I have felt this increased road image and the sense of power and attitude these vehicles give is worth having them.
So this time an SUV for me.

Also with Fiesta gone, I still have a Hyundai i10, a honda city ZX and an old Fiat Uno. So SUV will complete the lot. However for me, the vehicle I will buy, is going to be the prime means of transportation.

"So that was the little background"

Now it shows the options I am left with is, a Scorpio or Safari. [Or even a Fortuner, but only if I am ready for two tough years of bankruptcy, which obviously I am not and at specially when I don't find the fortuner to be worth the premium of 25 lacs. You can blame the visit to Middle East responsible for it where Fortuner is a kid's SUV at close to 12 lacs [frustration]]

So now the ever tough question, Safari Or the Scorpio

As I mentioned to you in my last post, the only problem with safari is that 13.75 lacs for the Vx. Giving it is not a problem but feeling that amount spent to be justified surely is.

Moreover, you can call it God's design that the owner of the Mahindra showroom back in my place happens to be a family acquaint and hence I am giving further discoounts of 40k on the scorpio making it 11.6 OTR for me. [VLX with Airbags].

Now after knowing about the not so good ride quality of the scorpio [I felt it to be missing that aspired stability after trying out XUV for sure. However trial of Safari, the difference was obviously there but not that great so as to break this deal. Moreover the option of bilsteins for the scoprio at 40k make it worth giving a try.
So that sums up my current decision for the scorpio.
However since Storme is coming in september [heard it from Tata TSM], I will surely wait till then and give it a try. [Also the rumors of the new scorpio by then will have some clarification to them.]

Tyres, yes I also felt 275/60 R27, which I wanted initially to be an over kill with loads of weight on the axle etc.
However 255/60 R17 has been tried by people. That increased resistance is countered by the .35% increase in the rolling dia making it not a bad proposition.
Offset, I am still trying to figure out that [thinking]

but I guess with a K and N and a tuning box customized for scorpio [dieseltronic], it should take them up.

"Wish car purchase would have been like the subway - add only those which you want" [;)]
 
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I dint mean the VLX 4WD is not value for money.

BUT - If I am buying a 4x4 Scorpio, I would want to take the vehicle to places where it is meant to go, I would like to torture it in extreme 4x4 conditions and I would even attempt to go some extreme places.

Now, in such treacherous conditions, it is better to have a simple and robust vehicle with bare minimum electronics for that added reliability. Painted body cladding and foot steps of the VLX would be a disadvantage in such conditions. Hence, I would opt for the basic LX 4x4.
Hmm,
Sounds sense.
You always have a logic backing up your contemplations Raj. [;)]

Any substantial and proven info about the ride quality difference of 2WD and the 4WD scorpio ? [my old post, anti roll bar Vs Torsion bar]
 

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