Question to Tata Indigo Manza Owners

[gypsy]

Thanks Tornado for reading my long post & carrying out such detailed experiments to seek the solution of the problem.....truly commendable.

I am also going to td the Td cars of dealer. I also request you and other manza owners to take td at dealers silently.

Till now I have a list of 27 manza owners who have confirmed the left pulling, I have driven 11 brand new manza (3 in the 1st day itself) last one I drove was magically going straight & no steering vibration I drove with 4 tata official @ 140kmph on a short run on the expressway.

That test car tyres were fitted in my car, alignment checked yet again & brought to near default values 0'.30" (manza has +/-0.10" min tolerance) but the same tyre could not make my manza go straight. At that time I again said that there has to be some issue within steering but it was shot down again by tata team.

So question is that, why so many owners are not suffering from left pull of manza , why only gypsy? & few more.

one reason can be is that they have shifted alignment values to make the car go straight but 2 side effects will happen, steering vibration will increase above 80-90 (highway Ranger is having this problem) http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...abs-qjet-truly-breed-apart-19.html#post135580
or the tyre will now start treading from one side more (due to forced camber settings) thus in long run you will see its effect on tyre shorten life.
I will try your experiments on this weekend when I have time & update here.

 

[Tornado]

to be contd...

 

[Tornado]

I could simulate the' left pulling ' type picture ( steering in normal position & tyres turned a bit to left) many times while parking in reverse.



I am also going to td the Td cars of dealer. I also request you and other manza owners to take td at dealers silently.


So question is that, why so many owners are not ..[

I have requested TAI an manza owners to take td of dealers td car, for' simulation' purpose.

@ gypsy, one should be able to get rid of the 'left pull' easily, as I am , but you and few manzas are not able to do so.
now, I feel that we are not only near the diagnosis, but also near the solution.

Coming back ASAP...

 

[gypsy]

6) I further moved the car, my friend said that the car has completed the turn. I saw that the steering wheel has completed 360°+360° of rotation.

I tried turn steering & noting down the angles,
its not 360+360 (2 full turns),
instead its 360+120°(1full turn +another2/3rd turn)

And it was looking exactly the same as it is described in the begining.

What do you mean by same as in zero position (straight tyre)

 

[Tornado]

@ gypsy , you are correct , its 360+120, As it was > shapped turn, I had to turn the car little right in the beginning.



by 'same' position I mean steering wheel in same position i.e. zero position., at the same time tyres were 10° to ward left. This thing I found , was abnormal. Do you agree? Now, today, I simulated again as it is written in these last two line.

Now, I wanted the tyres also in straight line. So I got inside started engine, without moving the car, I recoiled the steering by 360°, result was that steering position was ' looking like ' Zero position, but you know that 120° recoil is still remaining.So steering was showing tml logo in upright position.( remember, car was unmoved ), I got down, saw that the ' 10° left turned tyres' were corrected by 7° ,( 3° still remaining). Now I called my son & asked him, wheather the tyres are in straight position,? he said ,yes! I asked wheather the steering is in straight position?, he said yes.
But we gypsy & Tornado ,know that 120° &3° is still remaining, so as to call both the things 'Straight'

We will call this ' son certified straight position'



gypsy please dont try simulation on your own car . It will mislead you.

Coming back soon

 

[Tornado]

I know that It is very difficult to recreate the simulation , just by reading the manuvour s mentioned in my posts.

But I am sure that it is possible to create left pulling modules, just by performing various parking manuvours.

Following left pulling modules were created by me on a td car, with engine running in 1st gear /reverse gear,car moving, car unmoving, engine switched off , slope used to move the car forward , slope used to move the car back ward , in neutral gear while turning the car.

1) steering in Zero position, but tyres turned little left
2) steering turned 30° left, but tyres in straight position
3) steering in inverted position (upside down tml logo), but tyres in straight position!!
4) similar modules could be recreated on the right turn position

On e major peculiarity , I found that manza steering wheels have unusually high degree of rotation ability, with minimum or nil turn of the tyre, at the given moment,even if engine is running & car is moving slowly, in 1st /reverse gear.

One more peculiarity , is that the manza hydraulic powersteering requires more manual assistance while taking extreme turns at very low speed, same is true while the steering wheel recoils once the turn is over and you are straightening the car ,as compared to my old indigo ls hydrulic power steering.
Do you agree.?

Above mentioned modules are created with medium (normal) manual assistance while car was moving at very low speed with engine on.

Same modules are created with more than normal manual assistance while car was moving at very low speed on slope with engine off. It is unscientific to do so, also it can
seriously damage the steering mecanism of car.
Do you agree ?


Now we have a' son certified straight position' and 8 left pulling modules.
If you are agreed with me till now, then I am postulating a hypothesis, [what might have happened with gypsy' s manza.?]

Coming back asap...

 

[Tornado]

@ gypsy, I advised you againest using your own car for simulation, as it already pulling to left, and you are not able get rid of it. But I can get rid of' left pull' after simulation experiment is over.

HYPOTHESIS,--

Just imagine ,

scene one-
my son certified straight position manza is put on the alignment platform of TATA . reading taken . The reading will be abnormal for obvious reason you know already , that the son certified manza 's tyres are apperently looking in straight position, but in reality
they are deviated, by 3°. So alignmentmen will rectify the alignment. they give you a report. Your car comes out of the workshop, by now the steering wheel with minimal subconscious manual assistance might have corrected the 3° deviation. [travel from alignment platform to gate of workshop] Now you start driving in a straight line

Result will be car pulling to one side [due to mixture of so called correctd alignment on3°deviated tyres. ]


Scene two-
module 2 car is put on alignment platform , reading taken. Reading is going to be normal, for obvious reason that the tyres were in normal straight position , no body noticed the steering wheel . So alignment men says , no correction is required .you come out of the workshop ,30° deviated steering wheel gets its position normal i.e. zero position. You drive away, no pulling to one side.
After 2k km running, you go to new workshop, complaining, that there is uneven tyre tread wear. They check align ment, and say it was not done properly last time when it was due, but we will do it now.

Scene 3
to be continued...

 

[gypsy]

Tornado
How are you able to measure 3° or 10°, just by visual appearance if yes is that accurate?

Another observation is While alignment is done they rotate the steering once left 360° & then right 360° (they do this looking at screen markers) that shows 2 side limits on the machine LCD, then they define center & lock steering with a clamp, will doing all this not take into account the problem you have found?

The green band on 2 side is what they turn the steering upto

 

[Tornado]

Sorry @ gypsy,, for late return. I composed a long post yesterday on this thread over a period of 12 hr., as I had to go for emergency work in between. The post got deleted, when I touched' preview post' button , do n' t know how? , this has happened 3 times in past, so I decided to post, short ones.


10° ,3°,7° are approx.figures, not measured with an instrument but by naked eyes. So not accurate, but I wanted to say that there was some degree of deviation, if seen by experience d eyes.(not noticed by my sons inexperienced eyes).

At the time of alignment,While rotating steering , fully to right and left, looking at screen, not at landmark tml logo, In the end , wheel alignment is done but, wheather 'zero' normal positon of steering wheel was maintained or not, nobody knows.
Please, note that manza steering wheel has exessive rotation ability as compared to other cars, also it require s to be rotated more and more to achieve little degree of tyre turn. as compared to other brand cars.

You must have noticed, that in case of other brand cars, they acheive maximum tyre turn with little rotation of steering wheel.