New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill: Loss of Power


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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

I would strongly suggest you to escalate the matter to Tata officials, for their info and to make sure that even if you face any similar issue in future, it is resolved quickly and efficiently.
The issue is already reported to tata motors, their regional office in Gurgaon CSM is aware about this but they directly are not communicating with me instead they ask the dealer to call or email me which I am loosing faith on dealer/workshop bcoz the way they are working.

I will post on their facebook pages & see if that gets me a alignment report from the dealer.
 
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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

Ok guys its been long gap of 7-8 days which needs update with lot of info. I will try to give date wise account.

on 10th June
the matter was discuss extensively among GMs of various workshops during a training session within Tata CSM (Gurgaon office) & After discussing they concluded that the problem can be sorted out & I got a call from AGM Urmil Motors to get the car atleast once to them since I bought the car from them, I agreed for 11th june meanwhile I got a call from GM Oberai Motors Noida to get the car for a possible solution by replacing the left lower arm. I told him that I want to take the car to Urmil motors as they want to seriously look into this issue to which he happily agreed.

Next day on 11th June
I went to Urmil motors & sat there whole day they said that they have sorted out the left pulling problem & GM of urmil motors didn't gave me any alignment report but said that the caster was out by 1.6, which I cant understand as to when the car went to Oberai motors for alignment it did show correct reading & now another tata workshop say the reading were out.

Nevertheless they "somehow" sorted out the left pulling problem by some jugad (manipulation) & when I rotate the 2 front wheels the left wheel was having friction with brake pads & not moving freely as the right wheel is moving freely. The technician at urmil motors say this is very normal for the left wheel as it generates more power hence get hotter,
They are trying to make fool of me knowing I don't know much about cars. Is it true ?

I drove back home 65kms & the left wheel rim was so hot that you will burn the finger if you touch it & the disk is similarly hot so I didn't even try to touch it whereas right wheel is normal hot due to braking & runing, so this confirms that they are not admitting to the fault right from the day 1 due to which the car had left pulling problem now by some manipulation they have sorted out the problem but created another problem which will have some negative effect on the normal running of the car.

On 12 June
Since morning I have been asking for the alignment report from urmil motors & have asked the same from GM urmil motors but on 1st call he was not in workshop, after 2 hours I called at 2pm he said he has just landed in the workshop will soon be emailing me the report & now when I called him up 3.11pm he says the printout cannot be given from the machine as the data is locked unless I get the car back to workshop.

Amazed at his answer I questioned his workshop working methods & asked him as to why the printout was not taken out on 11 june itself he had no answer. Now he says I will manually make the alignment report & email you, I said I want a computer printout, he is adamant that tomorrow you will get it today being Sunday its not possible.

Do you smell something fishy?
If there is the data in the computer as claimed by GM urmil motors of the alignment done on 11 june then cant that be printed out? He is asking me to take the car there at workshop.

Around 4pm I get a handwritten report from GM Urmil motors with after values & no mention of before values making me doubt if they ever did any sort of alignment at all?

BY evening shot a email to tata motors which they replied on 13th giving me the regional official mobile number & email copy marked to him.

13th june
I went to my local tech who has a roadside workshop & asked him the probable cause of left pulling & he siad loking at the tyre that your front tyre seems to be over inflated (he said there can be many other causes but this seems one problem) I said no way the car is now almost aligned to which he voiced his concern that the tyre looks over inflated to his experienced eye, he got a air pressure gauge 3 tyre were 32 psi & left tyre indeed was having 36 psi, surprised by this finding he suggested that we go to a petrol pump & double check there.

To my surprise YES the left tyre was having 36psi & this is the manipulation which Urmil motors did to solve the left pulling problem. We got the tyre pressure back to 32 & test drove & surprisingly the car starts pulling back to left again, aghasted at this discovery I went back to inflate the left tyre again to 36psi & then drove back & the left pulling problem corrects again. So this was the stupid manipulation done by urmil motors to pacify me of the problem which in turn would have caused tyre irregular treading & in no time I would have to change the tyre.

Tata motors this is a serious issue at dealer level, are customers suppose to test & cross verify each & everything your dealer say & do?

On15th June
I went to meet GM of Oberai motors & told him the whole story he said please bring the car & they will replace the left lower arm, I asked him some detailed question as to understand the problem.

I questioned him if after replacing 1 part does not solve the problem what will he do then? He categorically replied that Tata motors senior management people are involved & aware about this issue & are commited to solve this problem & he has all approvals to change the parts as required.

Somewhat convinced I agreed to get the car on 16th June

16th June
Sat there whole day hoping to get the car in perfect condition. 2 senior technician along with DET were deputed on the job.

1.Left lower arm was replaced & alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained as it is, car happily pulled to left again.

2.Left knuckle was replaced (its a complex assembly where lot of controls are joining too a lot of time in opening)& alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained & got worse, car happily pulled to left again.

3.Shocked with the 2 replacements now shocker bushes along with left & right shockers were replaced just to ensure that right one is not pushing either, alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained as it is, car happily pulled to left again.

All efforts gone in Vain whole day past by laughing at our efforts I was sad as before but my inherent nature does not let me go down in crises that's when I discussed with Mr. Rajgopalan GM of Oberai motors to now think out of the box as all their SOP (standard operating procedure as per Manza manual) methods had failed to even locate the problem leave alone the solution to the problem.

At this point I said jokingly to the team members
"Even if I consider all tata workshop people are dumb & fool, all fools cant commit the same foolishness exactly the same way dealing with the same problem, there has to be a fool who thinks differently or act differently" THe team members agreed

This is when I discussed with team about my discussion with DET of Gola Ganpathi motors Haldwani who acknowledged the suspension problem & said that this problem can indeed be controlled to some extent by realigning the cross member (I think its called longi)& shifting it by few mm to its right, he even did this once but this has to be a manual procedure of testing as this is a non standard procedure & there is no machine for checking the alignment of cross member. For getting this perfect it will require a lot of time & several road test on highway.

We tried calling up to discuss the issue with DET, but his phone was not reachable so I gave the number to the team members & came back home with the car dead tired, had a long shower bath cooled down opened a can of bear & started thinking out of the box solution if the cross member shifting plan also fails what then?

Since I have been discussing this issue with whole lot of automotive experts I have compiled a lot of data+ video from national & international members who willingly have spent time to solve my problem.

Chilled bear did its magic after going through lot of data & forum post & email exchanged 2 ideas clearly were thought of.

1. We all have been concentrating to left pulling but something might be instead pushing from the right side so the problem may not be on the left side but the right side.

2. We have been getting front wheel aligned with the rear & as per my knowledge rear wheel are fixed so what if rear wheel are fixed wrongly by few mm? This would make errors on front wheel alignment.

From my point of view these both were absurd thoughts from a non automotive person, but I strongly believe absurdity allows us to push the limit of our present knowledge. Two examples I can give, Its was absurd of Newton to think "why does an apple always fall down?" hence we researched gravitational force.

Some stupid fellow thought in 1970s "can a machine (mainframe computer)talk to another machine kept in another room or building somehow?" today due to that absurd thought we have internet with wifi & optical fiber. So evolution happens due to this absurdity & its a must else we will be extint.

Armed with these 2 absurd thought I went to Oberai motors on 17th june
Its a long post hence will continue in 2nd part..
 
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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

Sad to hear about these incidents bro that too a brand new car! I know TATA'S A.S.S is bad even we have been using TATA cars for more than 15 years. Even i faced a similar problem like your's with them , for me the CHECK ENGINE light in my Safari was glowing no matter what they tried with the car! Finally sold the car and bought Aria as they still were not able to find out the issue.


Waiting for your next part eagerly.
 
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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

what if rear left/right brake cylinder is faulty.

hope rear right brake cylinder is leaking oil and so the rear left is acting as fulcrum and car pulls to left. but this has to be in the case of braking only.

i have this doubt since the pads in front are engaged all the times , as said by you.

what was the solution?!
 
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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

Continuation from the 1st part

17th June
On 17th june I reached at Oberai motors & by that time the GM had spoken to DET Gola Ganpathi motors & told me that this so called solution is non standard method which we don't recommend but if I give approval to do so we will go ahead, I STRONGLY suggested YES since all has failed this is our last hope.

They proceeded with the cross member adjustment, 1st & 2nd time adjustment plus alignment were tested on road without me 3rd time adjustment I went along on expressway approx 30km round trip, the car indeed reduced the left pull but still its there considerably, this is when we spoke to DET again at Gola Ganpathi & he suggested front tyre to be swapped we did that again alignment checked & went for the same road 30km round trip, problem remained as it is.

As our last attempt the cross member was once again adjusted & alignment done problem at last reduced to 60-70% now, the car atleast moves to some distance straight before pulling to left & then we tested on same 30kms round trip.

I requested for a test drive of another manza, just to check if that does the same left pulling & we went to same 30 kms test drive & this test drive manza also pulls to left so it was concluded by me that THE MANZA PULLS TO LEFT period & we have been trying to fix a problem which all manza are showing, mind you I test drove 3-4 manza at urmil motors they all were drifting to left, I have spoken to other manza users who report the same problem too. Even Vista users are facing this issue with no solution.

At this point we discussed how my old Indica V2 never showed this problem where as manza on same roads is giving me hell of a time. The only difference between the 2 cars suspension is that in Indica the suspension is mounted on to the body where as in manza the body sits on the suspension, in both cases they have the similar front (MacPherson strut) & rear fixed suspension.

By this time it was late evening we sat again with Mr. Rajgoplan to file the report to tata motors so it can be escalated right at the manufacturing & design team level. After filing the report I was assured that by tomorrow the answer will be comming so I will be updated but that did not happen as next day was Saturday.

Overall 5 attempts to fine tune the cross member & alignment gets us 70% correction now & I drove on expressway back home testing the car at various speeds, the car now is stable at least on lower speeds, earlier it was pulling to left quite fast now its still pulling but it does carry on straight to some distance (30-40mt)after that it starts pulling to left.

19th June
I spent whole Sunday again hunting the left pulling problem & possible causes & came across 2 good links, I request some knowledgeable members to read this & see if a possible solution can be found (I cant understand it much)
Fixing Wheel Alignment Problems
Diagnosing Rack and Pinion Steering Problems

Sunday night I received a call that factory engineer who is in charge of car production will be coming on Monday morning from Pune.

20th june
Mr. Mayur Vyas from the factory was briefed of the entire exercise & he listened to me patiently & then asked me to go on a test drive along with CRM Tata motors Ms. Sumedha. I drove with 4 people on the same 30 kms road the car pulled happily to the left & both Tata officials acknowledged the left pulling behavior as not so normal on plain roads. We discussed the road taper to left & its effect on steering etc.

During the test drive I drove 100-120kmph & showed that the steering is having some EXTRA input from somewhere & it wobbles left / right which is causing eventually the left drift. This was my finding of Sunday's research that steering can also cause this problem. The steering should not have any other extra input accept from my hand but in my case I quite evidently showed this left/right wobbling to the tata team members.

Tata engineer updated the manza design team & consulted with them. Once back in workshop Mr. Mayur took the car for checking the alignment & the following was done.

1. My car was aligned & specifically the rear alignment was checked too against the factory values.
2. Then a new manza was checked for alignment as per the factory values both rear & front values of my car & new manza were matching so that ruled out the rear misalignment.
3. the new manza was taken a test drive it happily pulled to the left confirming that all manza pull to left. (Total 6 cars tested during this course)

The findings were reported to the manza design team in Pune & based on further suggestions a maruti desire was tested by the tata team & they reported to me that even that happily puled to the left. (no alignment checked for that car)

So a big question emerged, are all modern cars suppose to pull left even on fairly straight roads? if yes how much distance should they cover at 80kmph before they pull to the left?

We sat & discussed the finding of various test & tata team members said that they are taking this findings seriousely & would need some time before the design team can give us the answers, from their side this issues is on top priority.

Now I must say that I have never experienced tata customer service as my previous cars didn't ever bother me so much that I ever had to escalate the matter to such higher levels. I have been told in past 1 month that I might have been given an accidental car or a refurbished car, YES it might be possible but mind you that urmil motors asked me to get any car from their yard & I picked 2 cars but unfortunately they both had the same left pulling problem hence I stuck to the present car only.

Looking at the car & the under body it does not appear to me atlesat that its an accidental car, if indeed it is then its so well disguised that no one can detect it & I don't have faith on workshops to do such an exemplary coverup so my personal belief is that all manza & vista are having this problem its just that my kind of driving style has precipitated this problem to a much higher level. There are many manza owners who said that they don't have this problem I would surely like to test those cars for a trial run.

95% of my driving is on highway & expressway I drive or rather cruise at constant speeds of 100-120kmph on expressway never rev up unnecessarily hence braking is gentle too. Once in 5th gear the entire expressway is covered in that gear maintaining the speed. No wonder my car is giving 22kmpl since the day 1 I am driving at 80kmph only for testing I have done over 100kmph (at least something is good about manza)

I move out at odd times for my work 6-7am in the morning or late afternoon at 2-3pm so I am mostly getting empty roads to drive on, returning back is late in the night anytime between 9-12PM again empty roads.

In my own thinking (I might be wrong)
macpherson strut as implemented in vista & manza has inherent limitation & it seems that its the nature of this suspension to roll on to the left side, here is a parallel example for easy understanding.

Lets say I complain the ball is rolling & cant stay still, now this is the very basic nature of the ball to roll it can stay still for a while on a flat surface but due to inertia it indeed will roll to side whereas a cube in the same situation will not roll even on a fairly inclined surface.

So you see that I have been complaining about the car pulling to the left even on a stretch of road where the incline is clearly to the right yet the car was going to the left. This might be the limitation of the way the suspension has been implemented in vista & manza. In my close observation after 70% problem correction is that as the car is moving the car gets into a rhythmic shocker moments & that creates a wave form which needs some release of energy & that is released in from of EXTRA input to the steering thus causing this left pull.

Specifically the left pull since most roads are 2-5° inclined to the left.

I may be completely wrong in my analysis but surely would want to have an answer though I may not keep this car as it is "still" not so stable when fully loaded & driving at speeds over 100-120kmph, it does not inspire confidence which I need in the car.

I still will wait for few more days & want to give tata motors & its engineers a chance as they have tried their best till now to solve the problem, they were slow to respond but they finally responded & I don't see any unwillingness on their part. They acknowledged the problem & filed a joint investigation report on the matter to the higher management today asking few questions to the manza design team too.

All I can do is wish Tata motors & its engineers best of luck that they come out with a robust solution but before that they still have to find a probable cause of this left pulling.

Good Luck to all involved in this problem.
 
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Akash

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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

Thanks for the detailed review of your problem Gypsy. I am sure it will help other Manza owners.
 
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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

Its hard to believe that all Manza and Vista suffering from this issue , but this issue has not not cropped up anywhere and i don't see many people complaining either like the steering rattle case in i10 and i20.


Anyways i think its a serious design flaw which TATA must look into and atleast find a solution to this and rectify it in the cars manufactured hereafter. Even i faced this left pulling issue in my Safari and after much complaints and checking the alignment it was still the same , so i decided to live with it!
 

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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

Hello Akash,
I too had a similar problem when driving on hill stations after a few climbs around hair pins saw the car getting sluggish and not responding as before. Started to slow down and I had to put in more power to push it. Also noticed that the temp gauge was also rising. Luckily before it was to get worse I reached my destination and that gave the car to cool down.

Also the Brakes during uphill it wasn't as responsive as in the highway. The pedal was going even further.

What other problems have you faced or facing . I got loads to share. Let me know.
cheers
So does this mean that the specific lot of Manzas is plagued with this issue. Can you please reveal the manufacturing date of your car?
 
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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

So does this mean that the specific lot of Manzas is plagued with this issue. Can you please reveal the manufacturing date of your car?
I tested 3 cars of Jan11 batch including mine.
I tested 1 car at urmil motors test drive vehicle the batch was from Jan too it was Elan.

Another Elan from Oberai Motor was test on 30 kms expressway & that too had this left pulling problem.

After all parts were changed & no solution to the problem I tested an older test drive car from Oberai motors this I assume was 2010 Oct Batch & had 10000kms on odo.

Yesterday the tata team tested a new Manza March 11 batch so total 6+1 manza have exactly the same left pulling problem.

Total 7 manza tested during last 1 month all pull to left.

Via facebook I have 14 manza/vista owners contating me stating similar left pulling problem & on the internet (other forums) I found vista having similar problems hence I got personally in touch with few vista owners & they have given me their mobile numbers just in case I need few test on their cars. They have been complaining about the same left pulling past 2-3 yrs & have adapted the driving style to left pull.

In my case (a non automotive person) finding this fault is quite surprising & shocking but I am those rare freaks who is madly in love with precision & balance since my own professional work depends upon it too so this freaking precision comes naturally to me. My tools have to perform 100% else they cant ever be with me I just cant depend on them.
 

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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

I tested 3 cars of Jan11 batch including mine.
I tested 1 car at urmil motors test drive vehicle the batch was from Jan too it was Elan.
I tested the Manza Elan and Vista90 last moth, but surprisingly i did not find any kind of pulling to any particular side. Out of these the Vista90 test was a comprehensive one (read for TAI).

Yesterday the tata team tested a new Manza March 11 batch so total 6+1 manza have exactly the same left pulling problem.
Total 7 manza tested during last 1 month all pull to left.
Via facebook I have 14 manza/vista owners contating me stating similar left pulling problem & on the internet (other forums) I found vista having similar problems hence I got personally in touch with few vista owners & they have given me their mobile numbers just in case I need few test on their cars. They have been complaining about the same left pulling past 2-3 yrs & have adapted the driving style to left pull.
To me this looks like a manufacturing defect which Tata motors must address soon before it is too late.
 
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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

I tested the Manza Elan and Vista90 last moth, but surprisingly i did not find any kind of pulling to any particular side. Out of these the Vista90 test was a comprehensive one (read for TAI).

To me this looks like a manufacturing defect which Tata motors must address soon before it is too late.
On facebook manza page I have requested delhi NCR manza owners to come forward with their cars for a test drive on a clear flat road. One I am meeting tomorrow & have decided the road patch for test drive within delhi.

https://www.facebook.com/IndigoManza/posts/10150163177722609?notif_t=feed_comment
 
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Re: New Manza Creeching & Refusing To Climb Uphill; Loss of Power

I have Vista Aura Safire bought in Mar'09 and have never faced any left pulling issue. I had faced this once but was resolved after wheel alignment and balancing.

Has any other Vista owner faced this issue?

@Gypsy:Could you check if this is specific to Quardajet/TDi/Safire models?
 
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