Law Commision of India's Report on Legal Reforms to combat Road Accidents

[jalex]

So they do have speed limits there. And yes we already have speed limits that vary over here, But Authorities never put proper cautionary sign boards where it is necessary.

We do have camera equipped cars and surveillance cameras in metros already. The need for installing even more cameras is mentioned in the Report to the Law Commission. And yes education and proper licencing procedures in addition is necessary.

The tachograph is a great idea. But it could be misused here, Truckies have two or three different licences and continue driving even after getting one suspended here. They just use the next one.

Broken down vehicles are removed by the authorities here if the owner does not do that, that is procedure here. They just charge him with the towing charges plus the fine for causing obstruction on a public road. The fines are whimsical. Suspending the licence if they do not move it would be a fair determent to counter the negligence, I agree.

Driving at 160 on an 80 Kmph only expressway makes you the bigger culprit of the two if you involve in an accident. Try wearing a bikini in Saudi Arabia on a beach and stating it can be done in Europe. And are you German?

 

[drifter]

The tachographs getting more sophisticated in these days. The credit card sized inserts can be issued for iris recognition and via a central database compared. You can trust me, people try in Europe too. They just don't get away with it as easily as the authorities do something about it. And the authorities have to do something as otherwise their job and possessions are on the line.

I have driven over 20 lakh km in my time. Quite a few of them over 200kph and roughly half of them in excess of 150kph. I was involved in one high speed accident, where another car coming from another motorway trying to get on my lane with about 180 to 190kph. I did around 170 to 175kph. The occupants of both cars survived the accident without serious injuries.

The irony is that I received whiplash on three occasions when people hit me from the back in the city at speeds below 50kph. And my cars suffered hit and runs on four occasions, where on one occasion the car was a write off. Inm the four instances the car was stationary with me not being in.

The reason why I am still alive is because I had a proper driver training, where I learned to constantly evaluate the traffic situation and drive accordingly. Also my cars are maintained to the level necessary to drive accordingly.

I know now the Pune expressway quite well, having driven it a number of times. There is spots that need restricting and other spots that are safe. I obviously will not plough through a bunch of stupid truck drivers turning three lanes into four.

Speed is not the problem. The attitude to execute it makes the difference between life and death.

 

[jalex]

I have driven over 20 lakh km in my time. Quite a few of them over 200kph and roughly half of them in excess of 150kph. I was involved in one high speed accident, where another car coming from another motorway trying to get on my lane with about 180 to 190kph. I did around 170 to 175kph. The occupants of both cars survived the accident without serious injuries.

You were doing 170 to 175kmph, the other car was doing 180-190kmph at crash! Was he coming in the opposite motorway?


Anyone with a heavy foot can speed but what matters is how many can stop at short notice. In India, Licences can be had for 40$ reported the BBC. Its uniform all around and in some places you dont even need to be present at all to take the tests. What I am trying to say is we need to stop this unholy system before we increase speed limits, be it 10 kms more than what is now the norm.

And I too believe speed is not the problem for accidents, It is the wrong speed at the wrong time that creates accidents. But then again, in India there also lies the fact that many people driving vehicles have the I.Q of Dodos and its better to have chimps at the wheel at 130kmph than them. Many people with driving licences are unfit to hold them altogether and this fact has been mentioned in the Report to the Law Commission. For instance there is a complete deaf and partially blind guy with a licence near my place. There are so many with similar disabilities all over. Most of the truck drivers have poor vision and are half blind.

 

[carfreak]

Are we discussing about Law Commision of India's Report on Legal Reforms to combat Road Accidents or Law Commision of Europe's Report on Legal Reforms to combat Road Accidents ? Am confused

Jalex has done a World of good by sharing this report. Sticking to the topic will benefit many Indian drivers by creating required awareness. Am sure many in this forum including me have driven in various countries across the globe. But by comparing one country to another will lead to deviation from topic I feel.

 

[drifter]

You were doing 170 to 175kmph, the other car was doing 180-190kmph at crash! Was he coming in the opposite motorway?


Anyone with a heavy foot can speed but what matters is how many can stop at short notice. In India, Licences can be had for 40$ reported the BBC. Its uniform all around and in some places you dont even need to be present at all to take the tests. What I am trying to say is we need to stop this unholy system before we increase speed limits, be it 10 kms more than what is now the norm.

And I too believe speed is not the problem for accidents, It is the wrong speed at the wrong time that creates accidents. But then again, in India there also lies the fact that many people driving vehicles have the I.Q of Dodos and its better to have chimps at the wheel at 130kmph than them. Many people with driving licences are unfit to hold them altogether and this fact has been mentioned in the Report to the Law Commission. For instance there is a complete deaf and partially blind guy with a licence near my place. There are so many with similar disabilities all over. Most of the truck drivers have poor vision and are half blind.

You mean as in chimps that we have driving vehicles in Europe? The variety without fur?

We have plenty of these here too.

Anyway, I am not saying that speed restriction increase should be the first measure. A lot of things have to be put in place before or at the same time.

One other thing I would vouch for too is that a lot of the commercial traffic should go on the rails. This would get a lot of the nuisances of the roads/ expressways.

 

[jalex]

You mean as in chimps that we have driving vehicles in Europe? The variety without fur?

We have plenty of these here too.

Anyway, I am not saying that speed restriction increase should be the first measure. A lot of things have to be put in place before or at the same time.

One other thing I would vouch for too is that a lot of the commercial traffic should go on the rails. This would get a lot of the nuisances of the roads/ expressways.

By chimps, I mean the crazy drivers we have in India, I haven't been to Europe so I dont know about how's it there.

And you really did say this and what I understand according to you is that the increase of speed limits to 130kmph was the the first thing to do to reduce accidents on the roads in India followed by punishing truck drivers for driving recklessly and so on.

Your Words:-

For my experience the solution to lower the road accidents is the following.

1. Increase the speed limit on the express highway to 130km

2. Punish truck drivers heavily for reckless driving including driving on the fast lane..

And the railways in India I believe is already bursting at the seams. Maybe if the roads are developed more and trucks are too upgraded, Like into more powerful tractor trailers carrying more loads and occupying less space in comparison.

 

[drifter]

Are we discussing about Law Commision of India's Report on Legal Reforms to combat Road Accidents or Law Commision of Europe's Report on Legal Reforms to combat Road Accidents ? Am confused

Jalex has done a World of good by sharing this report. Sticking to the topic will benefit many Indian drivers by creating required awareness. Am sure many in this forum including me have driven in various countries across the globe. But by comparing one country to another will lead to deviation from topic I feel.

It is not a comparison between countries.

When the authorities in other countries have solved some of the problems that are unsolved till date in your own then it would make sense to look at their solutions before deciding to re-invent the wheel.

I have not only driven in different countries. My job in the automotive engineering world has brought me to different countries to do my work there for the specific market requirements and problems.

Physics works in Asia the same way as in any other part of the world. Although we might different traits, humans are so similar in so many ways that we can draw conclusions.

The Law Commission itself looked into the British model. And the British looked into the German, French and Dutch model. The Gatso, the mother of all speed cameras after all came from the Netherlands.

Germany is not better than other countries. However, Germany is in a unique situation when it comes to traffic. Till date Germany has more cars than India, but only 82 million inhabitants on 3,57,000 square kilometers.

India has got 32,87,000 square kilometers and about 17 times the population.

Germany is a small country with a lot of traffic without the transit traffic. It is right in the centre of the European unity. Trucks and other vehicles have to go through Germany to an extreme degree. The result is that the driving style of many cultures come together in that small country.

The reason why the German system is so good because the Germans want to survive in such heavy traffic.

What is wrong on looking into it. Saving lives justifies for looking in any direction possible.

 

[drifter]

By chimps, I mean the crazy drivers we have in India, I haven't been to Europe so I dont know about how's it there.

And you really did say this and what I understand according to you is that the increase of speed limits to 130kmph was the the first thing to do to reduce accidents on the roads in India followed by punishing truck drivers for driving recklessly and so on.

Your Words:-

For my experience the solution to lower the road accidents is the following.

1. Increase the speed limit on the express highway to 130km

2. Punish truck drivers heavily for reckless driving including driving on the fast lane..

And the railways in India I believe is already bursting at the seams. Maybe if the roads are developed more and trucks are too upgraded, Like into more powerful tractor trailers carrying more loads and occupying less space in comparison.

We have more chimps behind wheels than you.

You are right, I listed this as the first point, but this was not meant to be the first point in action. It only works when the whole package is implemented.

 

[jalex]

You are right, I listed this as the first point, but this was not meant to be the first point in action. It only works when the whole package is implemented.

And that was why I had to disagree back there and that was my whole point

 

[drifter]

And that was why I had to disagree back there and that was my whole point

I think the 2 of us should take over the transport department.

At second thoughts, that might create to many enemies.

 

[jayadev]

guys at least in TAI ,you can be more practical and show some intelligence rather than stick to rule books and ancient bibles.
today i drove compare test between a 2005 ambassador and my 2010 punto on NH-17..this thread was in my mind all day and fortunately amby came handy

anything above 60kmph amby would shiver,struggle. even though the car was well maintained the brakes were not confident inspiring . all i did was maintain it under 60.
behind me i heard lot of honks,honks which means moving under 60 was more public nuisance in this fast world. i can imagine what could be my probable fuel mileage -13kmpl!
observations in amby..
1.i am driving at safest speed in that car.
2.even at those speed car did not feel very safe (brakes,body roll and steering response etc)
observations in punto .
1.driving at 60-70 gave made me feel i am too slow so pushed the pedal to 80-90.
it felt like moving at ease with the general public,( mileage figure raised from 19kmpl to 24kmpl).
2.car felt responsive and safe for straight and curvy roads with very good braking capability.

i think it need no explanation why i did mention about comparison drive above.

finally i will conclude as a common man of india, in the name of road safety 70-80 percent is just drama just to fool general public and create some employment.
because primary requirement of safety starts from good roads and better infrastructure.
even though we have single lane roads in kerala no signal systems nor any traffic constable anywhere throughout. still i can say 90-95 percent of accident did not happen due to overspeed but illegal driving like dangerous overtakings,unlearnt drivers etc or mechanical failures .
in kerala government hasnt done anything properly regarding road safety not even employed skilled traffic police . either those policemen would be hiding somewhere or standing like dummies on the middle of road.,but i can see millions of rupees has been spent on imported speed check cameras with four or five policemen handelling it .
(people now know where police will be waiting with cameras and slow down at that point and continue after wards)
as per inquiry i learnt that speed check camera program is part of additional income for poverty stricken police department of kerala so every month certain fixed number of vehicals must be caught , end of story.
true stories are pathetic to read learn but to make a headline and newsticker "law commision indias report legal-reforms-combat-road-accidents" such titles sound very promising and bold ..
but sigh.. our own lives.

 

[jalex]

guys at least in TAI ,you can be more practical and show some intelligence rather than stick to rule books and ancient bibles.
today i drove compare test between a 2005 ambassador and my 2010 punto on NH-17..this thread was in my mind all day and fortunately amby came handy

anything above 60kmph amby would shiver,struggle. even though the car was well maintained the brakes were not confident inspiring . all i did was maintain it under 60.
behind me i heard lot of honks,honks which means moving under 60 was more public nuisance in this fast world. i can imagine what could be my probable fuel mileage -13kmpl!
observations in amby..
1.i am driving at safest speed in that car.
2.even at those speed car did not feel very safe (brakes,body roll and steering response etc)
observations in punto .
1.driving at 60-70 gave made me feel i am too slow so pushed the pedal to 80-90.
it felt like moving at ease with the general public,( mileage figure raised from 19kmpl to 24kmpl).
2.car felt responsive and safe for straight and curvy roads with very good braking capability.

i think it need no explanation why i did mention about comparison drive above.

finally i will conclude as a common man of india, in the name of road safety 70-80 percent is just drama just to fool general public and create some employment.
because primary requirement of safety starts from good roads and better infrastructure.
even though we have single lane roads in kerala no signal systems nor any traffic constable anywhere throughout. still i can say 90-95 percent of accident did not happen due to overspeed but illegal driving like dangerous overtakings,unlearnt drivers etc or mechanical failures .
in kerala government hasnt done anything properly regarding road safety not even employed skilled traffic police . either those policemen would be hiding somewhere or standing like dummies on the middle of road.,but i can see millions of rupees has been spent on imported speed check cameras with four or five policemen handelling it .
(people now know where police will be waiting with cameras and slow down at that point and continue after wards)
as per inquiry i learnt that speed check camera program is part of additional income for poverty stricken police department of kerala so every month certain fixed number of vehicals must be caught , end of story.
true stories are pathetic to read learn but to make a headline and newsticker "law commision indias report legal-reforms-combat-road-accidents" such titles sound very promising and bold ..
but sigh.. our own lives.

You might be right about the Ambassador. Its almost the same as a WWII design.

To fix things in this country we need to start somewhere. And laws might sound crazy, But it sure helps. And its a fast world we have here, But its death who's in the driving seat. Speed per se is not the cause of accidents, But as you have said we still have many vehicles that cannot be safe above 70kmph. So we cannot say that speed is not an issue. See with the money people in Kerala has got, Most can go and buy a super car with half of their assets alone. Imagine if many of them start buying cars that can do 0-100 in 3.3secs and then say it feels like walking to drive at 250kmph and its like you are dead at 70kmph! I hope you get the point.


And about roads not developing, In Kerala for instance we are the ones who took to the streets in protest when an express way was about to be planned to be constructed. And I repeat just a plan made protests. We idiots in Kerala think, whatever the glorified and over rated media churns out is God's word. And get hyper when they print some ludicrous nonsense. Its incredible that people in Kerala believed that Kerala will be torn apart in two if an Express highway is built. Some stories back then was like to cross the Expressway to the other side, You will need to go 20Kms to cross Not all maybe, but the majority believed this. If we had not protested, A part of the Golden Quadrilateral would have passed through Kerala.

And before blaming politicians for everything, just imagine. How many people go and see a minister, an M.L.A or an M.P for something such as a public interest? Most people go to influence them into getting something done out of the book with their powers. This is you and I. Its not that politicians are out there selling opportunities for corruption. But its us putting pressure on them to do that.


And you are right about Police with no knowledge about what to do while in control of traffic on the roads. It has to change and without delay.

The revenues that come from Police fining does not go into the department, But into Government treasury. Speed check cameras do have an impact. For instance on the way to the court complex from town here,The Thodupuzha-Idukki road, the roads are among the best in the state and every single day there is accident at places where the roads are arrow straight. But when the cops are out with cameras, Not a single incident has been reported and stays that way for a week, even when there are no cops. They usually stand at places where the roads are straight for some 600-800metres. This motorists know, and isn't it better if people out of thinking that the cameras are there slow down to a safe speed? And they just dont fine speeding people. A lawyer from our Bar Association had got his licence suspended for two weeks when he was caught the second time in three months for speeding. Speed cameras do yield results.

And I am not against raising speed limits by any chance. But not with the system we have now, be it the road infrastructure, The authorities and the way vehicles are maintained and driven. All this needs to get fixed first.

 

[jayadev]

In Kerala for instance we are the ones who took to the streets in protest when an express way was about to be planned to be constructed. And I repeat just a plan made protests. We idiots in Kerala think, whatever the glorified and over rated media churns out is God's word. And get hyper when they print some ludicrous nonsense. Its incredible that people in Kerala believed that Kerala will be torn apart in two if an express highway is built. Somestories back then was to cross the Expressway to the other side, You will need to go 20Kms to cross

that is not exactly the reason imho.
an express highway in congested kerala land will make 1000s of people homeless. many 1000s have small shops and botiques relying on highway traffic . an EW will completely steal all such revenues. rather we would be using it at steep toll price.
at my homeplace we have lost two mini towns because new 6km bypass road .couple of 100's of people has to loose their homes .needless to mention if you loose your home for govt projects imagine your fate. couple of shop owners whom i knew are now almost with begging plates or at the verge of suicide. we dont have cultivation or side buziness like in northern state of india. even though bypass road has greatly relieved us all but even larger solutions could have made us pay much dearer.
same as instead of getting things fixed at minor issues we are planning greater systems thinking of future which we may need to pay in hurting manner.
take for instance we have just 2 junctions in kannur which is notorious traffic block source . daily i see two policmen on either side of road, ask anybody are they worth? no not at all. this is being practiced since last 2 years instead if there was traffic signal light along with those policemen things wold have sorted out like piece of cake.even crazier thing is just 0.5km further those junction i see highway police van regularly catching cars without seatbelt drivers and bikers without helmet creating another traffic slowdown. all we do is curse those B@###ds in khaki uniforms.
instead of resolving with simple tool if government start talking about express highway which will take eternity to come into action anybody sane can go mad by that time.

 

[jalex]

that is not exactly the reason imho.
an express highway in congested kerala land will make 1000s of people homeless. many 1000s have small shops and botiques relying on highway traffic . an EW will completely steal all such revenues. rather we would be using it at steep toll price.
at my homeplace we have lost two mini towns because new 6km bypass road .couple of 100's of people has to loose their homes .needless to mention if you loose your home for govt projects imagine your fate. couple of shop owners whom i knew are now almost with begging plates or at the verge of suicide. we dont have cultivation or side buziness like in northern state of india. even though bypass road has greatly relieved us all but even larger solutions could have made us pay much dearer.
same as instead of getting things fixed at minor issues we are planning greater systems thinking of future which we may need to pay in hurting manner.
take for instance we have just 2 junctions in kannur which is notorious traffic block source . daily i see two policmen on either side of road, ask anybody are they worth? no not at all. this is being practiced since last 2 years instead if there was traffic signal light along with those policemen things wold have sorted out like piece of cake.even crazier thing is just 0.5km further those junction i see highway police van regularly catching cars without seatbelt drivers and bikers without helmet creating another traffic slowdown. all we do is curse those B@###ds in khaki uniforms.
instead of resolving with simple tool if government start talking about express highway which will take eternity to come into action anybody sane can go mad by that time.

That was exactly what I'm talking about, Media and its games scripted by someone with vested interests. See the government is not going to snatch away people's property for road infrastructure development just like that. The people who loose their land and homes will be compensated and they will be offered more than what the market value is in the area. For instance for the Sabari Rail project, No one was given lesser than 80,000 rupees per cent of land. And here Rs.80,000 was the amount given for marsh land and not dry land either.

Similarly the Expressways are also a National Project and people will get decent amount in damages for the loss the suffer in the process.

Do you think a 1000 people's convenience should hamper the convenience and well being of 33387677? (Thats the number of people in Kerala as in accordance to the 2011 census figures.)

Kerala is not a place without opportunities. I pay 500 Rupees plus food for an unskilled hand for labour in my farm. Its the pay here and I live in a rural area. Skilled hands cost above 750 these days. Timber workers are paid 1500 and upwards for a 2 hour job and still there is shortage of hands. A guy with an auto takes home a 1000 bucks after a day's work. Problem is people in Kerala in general are not willing to do any work that comes their way and they will only work under a fan or in an A/c room. Well sorry to say but that is just plain laziness and hypocrisy. Another point to note is that Kerala's roads have been encroached upon by people who own the land or have shops on either side, For instance in our town. The footpaths are completely eaten away by these so called poor shop keepers which in turn force pedestrians to play tango with the traffic further slowing down and making traffic chaotic. Its the same in many parts of the nation and this practice should end.

I myself gave a metre's width of my land from one end to another free of cost to the panchayath to build and make way for a proper road. We earlier had a road where only 4W Jeeps with expert drivers could only tread. I and my family were threatened for doing so by neighbours. I lost a some cents of land and a line of timber along with my boundary wall, But now even a tractor trailer can traverse our road and the value of land has also increased and I actually gained more over the years in value than what I lost.

In Kerala itself 13-14 people die every day in R.T.As, I believe its the nation's highest death toll figures. Without building more roads and proper enforcement of law. It could be either of us who might be in tommorow's obituary section. If someone says Road accidents are worser than terrorists, Its no surprise but just a fact.

 

[jalex]

Some suggestions I liked in the report:-


-------------------------------------------------------------
Para 31.3. “One of the stakeholders has suggested slab rates for
over speeding since the danger increases manifold when the
vehicle is driven at 90Kmph or at 120 kmph. Thus slab may be as
follows:
20% more than speed limit Rs.500
50% more than speed limit Rs.1000
100% and beyond cancellation of licence and held under
section 184 of Motor Vehicle Act.”

Para 33.3. “The Committee notes that the Motor Vehicles Act,
1988, does not contain any provision or penalty related to the
usage of mobile phones by the drivers while driving. However,
through an executive order the Government prescribes the
penalties for the use of mobile phones while driving. However,
the executive order is silent on the following issues:-
- Should the case be booked under section 184 of the
MVA?
- What does it mean ‘while driving’ – can one be
booked while waiting on a signal?
- Can hands free-phones be used?
- Are two way radio sets allowed by taxi users and
other paramilitary and police organizations?”

Para 33.4. “At present, the offence of usage of mobiles will be
punishable under the category of dangerous driving vide Section
184 Motor Vehicles Act. The Committee feels that the Motor
Vehicles Act being a two decade old legislation could not have
envisaged the usage of mobile phones and the gravity of the
situation which causes large number of accidents. The Committee,
therefore, recommends that a new Section should be entrusted
specifically for the usage of mobile phones while driving.”

Para 34.3. “It was submitted to the Committee by the
representative of the Institute of Road Traffic Education that the
breath alcohol tests conducted on drunken drivers proved that they
were having alcohol level of 30 mg to 200mg and above in 100ml
of blood. The more the quantity of alcohol makes the driver more
vulnerable to accidents. The danger increases manifold when he
drives at 90 km/hr or 120 km/hr compared to the low speed
driving. The probability of accidents increase with the increase of
the speed of motor vehicle. Higher the speed would mean higher
the risk of accidents and therefore should attract higher penalty.
The Committee feels that a singular penalty in such cases will not
serve the purpose. The Committee recommends the following
slabs:
(i) 30-60 mg per 100ml of blood- a fine of Rs.2000/-
(ii) 60-150 mg per 100ml of blood- a fine of Rs.4000/-
and/or imprisonment; and
(iii) 150mg and above per 100ml of blood a fine of
Rs.5000/- and minimum imprisonment with a
provision to cancel the driving licence.”
-------------------------------------------------------------------
For the last suggestion on drunken driving, I would say a compulsory imprisonment for at least 3 days or a week should be made in addition to the fine as punishment.
I still have to go through the entire report and invite discussions on the report.