Starting To Buy My New Car (Read Replacing 16 Year Old Workhorse Maruti Zen)

[Akash1886]

"Capably designed body shell" , its a 20 year old Indica platform thats worked on

Please elaborate on the changes/enhancements made to it.

Dont twist my own arguement against me , you provide proof, you have no remote proof also whereas Suzuki does have Euro NCAP
The Suzuki platforms are NCAP tested in global variants and if they are compromised quality, doesnt mean Tata or any other brand is better
Also Baleno is exported from India to Japan and Baleno platform underpins Ignis so thats saying alot

I am not buying your view, To make your point credible enough, prove it to me that Tata Cars from Tiago onward are poor built. Show me the NCAP Proof of that. I am least bothered of what Suzuki's ratings are internationally and what they export where. I want valid proof of Tata's latest gen cars Tiago onward for poor built quality.

If this was Wagon R,Celerio etc , no doubt, Tiago is better but bring in cars like Baleno,Ignis etc and the whole equation changes

Prove it to me that Tiago has poor built than Baleno by a NCAP video.

"With the zero star rating for the standard version, Global NCAP offered Tata Motors the opportunity to test another version of the Zest with more safety features as has been the case with other manufacturers. Accepting the opportunity, Tata introduced a structural improvement to the entire Zest range while Global NCAP tested the new version with optional airbags ."

In your earlier post you said, Tata made changes to the chassis of Zest. But where does it prove that, Zest failed due to "Poor Body Shell or Built Qaulity" The body shell is mounted on Chassis right, so first prove it to me with NCAP Video where it is said, Zest has a poor body shell.

--Akash

 

[kkn13]

Do you even understand english? Read the paragraph-
"With the zero star rating for the standard version, Global NCAP offered Tata Motors the opportunity to test another version of the Zest with more safety features as has been the case with other manufacturers. Accepting the opportunity, Tata introduced a structural improvement to the entire Zest range while Global NCAP tested the new version with optional airbags ."


As for NCAP, Im asking you for proof first, you dont have any, so dont pass statements with no logic. Just because you have no answer, you ask me the same again
Just because you bought a Tata vehicle doesnt mean its the best
Im not saying Tata is bad but recognise a product for what it is and dont pass illogical statements with no proof

I should mention- I dont own a Maruti or Tata vehicle but Im tired of people glorifying Tata just because they can with no proof/logic
I dont intend on buying cars from either as well

 

[Akash1886]

Do you even understand english? Read the paragraph-
"With the zero star rating for the standard version, Global NCAP offered Tata Motors the opportunity to test another version of the Zest with more safety features as has been the case with other manufacturers. Accepting the opportunity, Tata introduced a structural improvement to the entire Zest range while Global NCAP tested the new version with optional airbags ."

I did read it right the 1st time itself, If I go by your own words

"Tata Zest's 0 stars in NCAP without airbags initially also seals the arguement, they introduced a reinforced chassis and added airbags and got 4 stars"

Now, you prove it to me how does a reinforced chassis prove that the steel used in Zest's body shell/body panels is thin or is of poor quality? A reinforced chassis can help in the overall stability of the car at time of impact but how can it justify the sheer quality of steel used in making of the car?

As for NCAP, Im asking you for proof first, you dont have any, so dont pass statements with no logic. Just because you have no answer, you ask me the same again

If you cant accept without a proof what I say, then, prove it to me that what I say is wrong. Simple. Prove it to me that the latest Tata Cars are poorly built with proof.

Just because you bought a Tata vehicle doesnt mean its the best

I bought a Tata for the 1st time in my life after owning Japanese cars for more than a decade and till now I have one. I have owned Optra too and a FIAT as well.

Im not saying Tata is bad but recognise a product for what it is and dont pass illogical statements with no proof

If you don't agree with a certain statement or logic then prove your point with a proof. I gave recognition to Tigor much before even buying it for it's VFM aspect and that is why it is standing in my garage.

I should mention- I dont own a Maruti or Tata vehicle but Im tired of people glorifying Tata just because they can with no proof/logic

OK, you feel that in present context we are glorifying TATA right and that too without proof/logic, Prove us wrong with a NCAP Proof about latest Tata generation car's weak overall quality.

--Akash

 

[kkn13]

Why dont you prove it? You love Tata so much right
At least Suzuki and other brands have tested Euro versions of the cars whose platforms are exactly same even if you want to argue about sheet metal

Tata has no benchmark, you have no arguement
Owning a Japanese car in the past doesnt mean you are decisive authority for everyone

I never said Tata cars are poorly built, I said they arent better than the competition like you Tata fanboys want to assume without proof

I personally dont want cars from either brand but I give credit where due

 

[Akash1886]

Why dont you prove it? You love Tata so much right

I haven't raised concerns on Tata, you have. You prove it that your concerns for latest Tata cars are true and you are honest.

Tata has no benchmark, you have no arguement
Owning a Japanese car in the past doesnt mean you are decisive authority for everyone

I never push my views on anyone. Prove it to me Tata has no benchmarks (in whatever way you think). Now, you make even a single comment on Tata for their safety, built or engines in their present gen cars, I will ask for a proof from you. Else your views are not to be seen as credible. I am no authority to influence anyone's decision. All are free to buy what they want. I have the authority to put my views only with my experience.

I never said Tata cars are poorly built, I said they arent better than the competition like you Tata fanboys want to assume without proof

OK Fine we are fanboys, we are supporting Tata, without proof, then you, with exceptional views, provide a proof and prove us wrong. Prove that new Tata Cars are below par to competition. Provide GNCAP, Euro NCAP, ASEAN NCAP on cars of Tata from Tiago onwards.

I personally dont want cars from either brand but I give credit where due

You are a true exception!

--Akash

 

[QuickBoy]

Well going by the quality of the body, I can tell from at least driving cars for last very many years, Tiago and TIGOR does have better strength overall than most other cars out there, My friend's Polo and the Figo I checked at showroom feels well built.
I cant say that for Marutis, I do come from an age were cars were built with very strong steel sheets. So does know a thing or two about that.
As for the drive and performance (I'am more concerned about the low and mid range torque than top speed, Have managed 55-60km average speed even with Ambys and Padminis on long drives), I can tell only after I do get behind the wheel.
As for seats well everyone has to learn a lesson or two from TATA. Built for typical Indian sizes. Those designed for Euro styles will require a 5'11 driver. (and I'am hardly 5'7)
Think Hyundai may be about to stop i10s. They are actually stripping everything possible from those cars, maybe their KIA may takeover small cars in future.(My reading of what is going on)

 

[ticken]

Well going by the quality of the body, I can tell from at least driving cars for last very many years, Tiago and TIGOR does have better strength overall than most other cars out there, My friend's Polo and the Figo I checked at showroom feels well built.
I cant say that for Marutis, I do come from an age were cars were built with very strong steel sheets. So does know a thing or two about that.
As for the drive and performance (I'am more concerned about the low and mid range torque than top speed, Have managed 55-60km average speed even with Ambys and Padminis on long drives), I can tell only after I do get behind the wheel.
As for seats well everyone has to learn a lesson or two from TATA. Built for typical Indian sizes. Those designed for Euro styles will require a 5'11 driver. (and I'am hardly 5'7)
Think Hyundai may be about to stop i10s. They are actually stripping everything possible from those cars, maybe their KIA may takeover small cars in future.(My reading of what is going on)

Hyundai i10 production is already ceased. Its the Grand i10 and trust me, don't fall for the Grand i10 4 speed autobox in sportz variant trap.
As per your case, i suggest retain the Zen and get a Tata Tigor, manual or AMT.
Brio AT is a good option as well as it is the only automatic hatchback with 5 gears and a torque convertor. Baleno CVT has annoying rubberband effect and you will rip your hairs out after you attempts
to get brisk acceleration out of it. Ford Ecosport is loaded with features. All the variants are well loaded. Tata Nexon is also a viable option.
Don't consider the Ford Figo AT, dual clutch is no where near a VW DSG and dual clutch AT are not suitable for our country.
For low budget, Tata Tiago or Tigor is the sweet spot. Anything plus/minus 10 lakh, its the Ford Ecosport.
Don't even test drive the Mahindra TUV300 AMT.

 

[kkn13]

Hyundai i10 production is already ceased. Its the Grand i10 and trust me, don't fall for the Grand i10 4 speed autobox in sportz variant trap.
As per your case, i suggest retain the Zen and get a Tata Tigor, manual or AMT.
Brio AT is a good option as well as it is the only automatic hatchback with 5 gears and a torque convertor. Baleno CVT has annoying rubberband effect and you will rip your hairs out after you attempts
to get brisk acceleration out of it. Ford Ecosport is loaded with features. All the variants are well loaded. Tata Nexon is also a viable option.
Don't consider the Ford Figo AT, dual clutch is no where near a VW DSG and dual clutch AT are not suitable for our country.
For low budget, Tata Tiago or Tigor is the sweet spot. Anything plus/minus 10 lakh, its the Ford Ecosport.
Don't even test drive the Mahindra TUV300 AMT.

Quite agree with this, this sums it up pretty well
Though CVT is a more reliable and smoother transmission than jerky, inconsistent AMT , so test drive both and decide

AMT has alot of bitter sweet experiences , probably better than DSG/DCT reliability though and even car cost is lower if not parts so its probably worth the fairly low budget risk
I should mention, alot of new engines are incoming given Bharat Stage VI, so expect new cars,new transmissions in 2018
Best to wait a bit, but do check out existing ones so that you can get an idea

 

[vijay_968]

@Akash1886 and @kkn13

I don't have any proof, but I can say few words about sheet metal thickness vis-a-vis "some form of basic safety". First 12 years of my Career required me to often sit beside a Mech. Engr. and ensure that his design met "shock, vibration and wind load" Specs of MY Final product. I had watched with interest how the Mech Guys would tinker "little here and little there" to remove stress build-up on frames and structures (using MSC Nastran software). A slightly THICKER sheet metal was less plastic and was able to distribute load to the structure (designed to handle load). Thinner sheet metal was more plastic and resulted in Dents on the Body before loads were distributed to the Structure (of an Electronic Equipment). Dents were not considered as "faults" in OUR line of products, but the Mech Guys would say, "Dents weaken the structure (by constantly pulling at the frames".

Before getting into the Crash Tests and Results, let's check TAI's "Photos and Videos of Accidents" thread. There was a Picture of Octavia last week. The driver didn't survive, IIRC. Point is, most of the "Hatchbacks, Sedans, Compact SUVs, many SUVs etc" sold in India, will deform heavily in a High Speed crash.

But, a vehicle with thicker sheet metal will need more force to cause a Dent in a Casual collision in City Limits and might protect occupants from Cabin intrusion "that may happen thro Side metal Panels" .

From my experience with "Indica, Indigo CS, Safari, Aria, Bolt and Tiago", I would say Tata uses thicker sheet metals for panels in their cars. I would rather have a Car with THICKER sheet metal. This Chottu Nexon is an intriguing C-SUV. Who knows, I might get one when I need to change. Tata Steel assurance is there ;-)

 

[kkn13]

Thicker sheet metal will trap people like in soo many cases of high speed driving
Chassis design matters more
Also cars like Nano and Zest have had 0 star crash tests before despite the sheet metal myth as have cars like Polo (without airbags) so that point is invalid

Designing a car is not as simple as tossing extra metal or working on the same 20 year old platform

Tata has come ahead but I dont think the tiger changes its stripes so soon, unless proof is provided

Like I said earlier, Ambassador despite its sheet metal was not the safest car on the road
Basic design is what matters more and thats where Japanese/Korean car makers concentrate more

India has alot of compromised quality compared to the rest of the world but that doesnt mean Tata is better just because it doesnt even have any hint of a test whereas the competition has been tested in Euro NCAP etc so we have some idea of how safe the Indian counterparts are

Anyways I respect your opinion because you provided a civil explanation unlike some others and you respected mine in return instead of forcing your opinion onto others because you bought a car from a certain brand like certain people here do

Lets reserve our judgements until NCAP tests are carried out

 

[vijay_968]

Deal, then.

Till then, let us leave the OP to concentrate on his new car purchase. Before I sign off for the day, I would like to mention one great thing about Ambys --- it required HUGE FORCE to crush thro that Tank of a Bonnet / Boot. The Glasses were the weak links. Same is true for the Padminis.

They were called Pleasure (Car), when I was a kid, growing up in TN. Hummmm, there was a Solid Reason (pun intended) for that.

 

[ticken]

Quite agree with this, this sums it up pretty well
Though CVT is a more reliable and smoother transmission than jerky, inconsistent AMT , so test drive both and decide

AMT has alot of bitter sweet experiences , probably better than DSG/DCT reliability though and even car cost is lower if not parts so its probably worth the fairly low budget risk
I should mention, alot of new engines are incoming given Bharat Stage VI, so expect new cars,new transmissions in 2018
Best to wait a bit, but do check out existing ones so that you can get an idea

Agreed. Best to wait for 2018 launches. And test drive is the most important thing to do.

 

[vijay_968]

Thicker sheet metal will trap people like in soo many cases of high speed driving Chassis design matters more Also cars like Nano and Zest have had 0 star crash tests before despite the sheet metal myth as have cars like Polo (without airbags) so that point is invalid.

Designing a car is not as simple as tossing extra metal or working on the same 20 year old platform Tata has come ahead but I dont think the tiger changes its stripes so soon, unless proof is provided.

Like I said earlier, Ambassador despite its sheet metal was not the safest car on the road Basic design is what matters more and thats where Japanese/Korean car makers concentrate more India has a lot of compromised quality compared to the rest of the world but that doesnt mean Tata is better just because it doesnt even have any hint of a test whereas the competition has been tested in Euro NCAP etc so we have some idea of how safe the Indian counterparts are.

Anyways I respect your opinion because you provided a civil explanation unlike some others and you respected mine in return instead of forcing your opinion onto others because you bought a car from a certain brand like certain people here do.

Lets reserve our judgments until NCAP tests are carried out

Though I already replied (vide my post # 31 above), a very interesting post came in another TAI thread on FE Vs Safety.

Member Acechip writes, "a large goat/sheep jumped in front of (friend's) Vento traveling at about 80 kph ... the front bumper/grill and part of the headlight were damaged ... any other lighter car, there would have surely been additional damage ... (friend) is now fully satisfied in buying a well-built German car even if it gives him a meager average ...".

The Force due to hitting a "20-25 kg animal at 80ish speeds" is NOT small. In a lighter car with THIN SHEET METAL PANELS, the Bonnet Hood could have collapsed before passing the impact to the Chassis. With thicker sheet metal (which is less plastic), the force of impact gets transferred to the Chassis, as intended; the more rugged Chassis then takes over.

An Engine Bay under a damaged hood is more prone for additional damages; could have resulted in an Immobile Car. The Driver would have been left to deal with local people trying to make quick buck. Buggers would start with Rs 30,000 and settle for Rs 15,000/- . May be the day's program would need to be canceled too. Waste of time and waste of money. Solidly built Vento helped Acechip's friend avoid all those unnecessary tensions. Kudos.

The link to Acechip's post is here. Any thread on Safety in any forum has the potential to help OP and others looking to buy a new car to choose wisely.

 

[Suryaputhra]

Thicker sheet metal will trap people like in soo many cases of high speed driving
Chassis design matters more
Also cars like Nano and Zest have had 0 star crash tests before despite the sheet metal myth as have cars like Polo (without airbags) so that point is invalid

Designing a car is not as simple as tossing extra metal or working on the same 20 year old platform

Tata has come ahead but I dont think the tiger changes its stripes so soon, unless proof is provided

Like I said earlier, Ambassador despite its sheet metal was not the safest car on the road
Basic design is what matters more and thats where Japanese/Korean car makers concentrate more

India has alot of compromised quality compared to the rest of the world but that doesnt mean Tata is better just because it doesnt even have any hint of a test whereas the competition has been tested in Euro NCAP etc so we have some idea of how safe the Indian counterparts are

Anyways I respect your opinion because you provided a civil explanation unlike some others and you respected mine in return instead of forcing your opinion onto others because you bought a car from a certain brand like certain people here do

Lets reserve our judgements until NCAP tests are carried out

I agree, HM Ambassador is not safe car despite of tank like thick sheet metal. You need good design to be safe car, sheet metal thickness alone will not make a car safer.

 

[Akash1886]

I agree, HM Ambassador is not safe car despite of tank like thick sheet metal. You need good design to be safe car, sheet metal thickness alone will not make a car safer.

Agreed the Amby had thick metal sheet but design issues (because of lack of technology and resources), still, can a car be 100% safe with just top level safety features but poor built quality? Shouldn't the safety features complement the built quality and vice versa?

PS: The design should be good and competent to distribute the impact and a good design should have crumple zones located at right places with due additional reinforcements provided in right places, however, a good design can be considered as strong if it also has good quality steel used in it. No design, no matter with how much of expertise it has been developed, can be considered 100% fit and secure if the OEM uses flimsy, thin and sub-par quality of steel in it. So, along with the design, quality of steel used in it and the amount of steel used in it equally matters as well.

Regards

Akash