Question to Tata Indigo Manza Owners


Thread Starter #1
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Dear Manza owners,
I need your attention to the problem I am facing with my new manza from day 1 when I refused to take the delivery due to car pulling left on every kind of road.
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...-manza-aura-abs-qjet-truly-breed-apart-3.html

Now I faced a power loss while driving up the hill & posted this thread.
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...eeching-refusing-climb-uphill-loss-power.html

My question are as follows:
1. what is the rpm at which turbo kicks in? My understanding is 1800-2000
2. what is the rpm required in 3rd gear from driving up hill with full loaded car (not overloaded)
3. is your manza sluggish & struggles a lot going up the hill?
 
Thread Starter #2
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Dear Admin,
Thanks for moving the thread but I feel this would be best answered by fellow Manza owners hence I posted in ownership reviews.

I hope in this section manza owners can find the thread & answer the query.
 
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Re: Question to Manza owners, is 2200rpm not enough for driving uphill?

@Gypsy> According to my understanding of diesel engines>>

The combination of the slower-revving, high-torque diesel motor, and the heavy chassis of the Manza, means that performance will be at its worst when climbing hills, particularly from a slow or standing start.

From the video u have posted, I can see that u leave the clutch 1s the car attains little motion and press the accelerator fully,, well I feel there is something wrong with that drive method.

I would suggest to drive this way>>

When you are holding the car in an inclined with the hand-brake on, switch to the 1st gear and hold the rpm past 2000. Now release the H-brake and the clutch simultaneously, but keep pumping the clutch inorder to maintain at steady rpm upto 2000 rpm, that is when u release the clutch the 1st time and when car starts moving forward the rpm will drop and after a while the rpm falls dead and the engine stops,[ this is what is happening in your case] to avoid that drop keep pressing the clutch again giving the pumping action. This action will give motion to the wheels in a pulse form.

As far as i think there isn't much of any part malfunctioning here, Just an example to explain this:

Consider a old force motor powered Ambassador and old izuzu powered one, with both engines similar configuration on papers the later izuzu engine drives uphills very easily compared to the force motor engines. This is plainly due the way the engines are tuned to perform. Its surprising to notice that force motor engines has greater top speeds compared to the izuzu engine Ambassador.

P.S. This solely my understanding towards the problem, May not be true in actual.

regards

Blackdiesel
 
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I have Vista so somewhat similar engine and spec. In my knowledge all QJDs Turbo Kick happens @1750 , So to comeback to your question if in incline with full load don't put it in 3rd unless you have good ramp up speed. 2nd would be optimum if you feel loosing traction and pulling
 
Thread Starter #5
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I have Vista so somewhat similar engine and spec. In my knowledge all QJDs Turbo Kick happens @1750 , So to comeback to your question if in incline with full load don't put it in 3rd unless you have good ramp up speed. 2nd would be optimum if you feel loosing traction and pulling
So this means at 2200rpm the car should easily move forward in 1st gear without much effort but that is not happening at all on the hills, in the plains it does fine at those rpm.

@Blackdiesel
Let me give a detailed description of those 30sec hell of time as detailed as possible.

The car had no problem since morning we started at 5.30am on 6/6/2011 it had good power build up past 2000 & I max drove it in range of 2000-2200 range approx.

We reached haldwani I started feeling some drag and loss of brakes, further up from kathgodam the real hills started & the car was refusing to move in 3rd gear @2200rpm, hence I shifted to 2nd gear to build the momentum @ 3000rpm & then shifted to 3rd gear but the can just got slowing down as if I am in the wrong gear. After 2-3 tries I felt there is something wrong with air filter & will check it at nainital bcoz we were suppose to go to Munshiyari which is much higher & more steep curves will be crossed on way.

We took a break till that time nothing major problem was felt except braking & less power After having ten min break somewhere around jeolikot started again had just gone by few kms we could feel break shoe burning and smelling. Since now the ac was off glasses down we could smell it which means this was happening since much before and was causing break & power loss.
(2 days before I had reported that the brakes shoe is making noise when I apply brake & something is dragging & making noise while running, but Oberai motors Noida after checking said no its not the case)

Now I had no way to stop on upgoing road midway with two families and kids. I decided to drive slowly but reach a spot where I can halt the car. Before I could halt the car worst happened.

On sharp left u bend there were a traffic halt so I had to halt too when I started the car had sudden loss of power & the car failed to move forward and car behind me had trouble understanding the situation.

Knowing from past few kms drive I knew the car is having some power loss hence I did the following.

1.Revved up the engine in 1st gear to 2800-3000rpm
2.handbrake was gently disengaged
3.gently took the left feet off the clutch fully
(handbrake & clutch were let off in opposite direction gradually while maintaining the rpm which according to me was on the higher side owing to the power loss which I was facing while coming up)

As anticipated the car didn't move forward instead the car lost power didn't move forward and started going back as hand brake was disengaged & my right foot was on accelerator , then engine got shut off.

4. Took of the right foot from accelerator & then braked full but the car had sudden brake failure that hand brake didnt work either & In my presence of mind all I could think of in that moment was forget all theories & apply common sense to what can be done now.

Luckily the car behind me after few seconds removed his car from behind & I let the manza move reverse & steered to the left side. The worst was still not over I unlock the car doors but the 2 ladies & 3 kids sitting behind could not open the doors as I had engaged the child lock for safety so had to be opened the gate from outside & then take them out from right door as the left door was not in a position to be opened since car was only 1 feet away from the hill.

I felt so ashamed bcoz of all this, I am not an over confident person/driver but I am sure about my driving skills hence was driving in the hills. Manza shook my confidence or rather should say jolted my confidence.

All passangers got down and then I moved the car few meters and stopped. The left front brake shoe was smelling and rim was too hot to touch.

Called a taxi from the hotel and sent them in taxi. When the taxi came(a pvt swift car) I took the car down & tested swift on the same bend it just responded as a car should respond to the clutch action so it concluded that something is indeed wrong with the brakes or clutch or may be both in my new manza.
I asked the local driver as to what can be the problem, he said it seems to be the clutch plate failure in a NEW MANZA.

Had to wait for the brakes to cool down then drove up slowly to nainital with 3 stops in between to let the brakes cool down they were getting hot with my driving uphill where I am not even needing to apply the brakes. At last when I reached nainital high court u bend the same problem happened & the car refused to move up with a single person no load at all.

So I decided to alter my technique & this time I kept my foot on the clutch (not a recommended method as it will burn the clutch) & kept it pumping & not let it go at one go the car still could not move up at 2000rpm & then I revved up to 3000rpm & that worked to move forward & I then stopped the car at the side of Manu maharani hotel. Left the car to cool down for 1 hour then took it up again the steep hill but with a very sluggish engine power.

I must tell you here that just past new year I have driven on same roads on 30th Dec 2010 with snow fall happening & ice on the roads where tyres are bound to loose traction due to ice formation, but my old Indica V2 2002 model never failed me even at 100,000 kms on odo, climbed the roads without a hitch.

To my knowledge diesel vehicle have zero tolerance with clutch so its important that we don't rev up when foot on paddle as it will not pass on the power to the wheels. Best example I can give is fully loaded trucks on hills moving in 1st gear with full revving up & not using the clutch.

After this descriptive post if you or someone else still feels that my driving method is wrong I am ready to listen & be corrected, after all my life will depend on running this car smoothly both for my professional work & my vacations.

By the way there has been a meeting in CSM gurgaon office where GMs of other Tata workshop were called in to discuss this particular case & I have been asked to take the car to Urmil Motors tomorrow morning.
 
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Thread Starter #6
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I think I have found the source of the problem.

After posting this detailed account I discussed this problem among local friends in my community & one of them asked a detailed account which I gave after listening he pointed some questions to me & noted down few things in my post here.

We then reversed the sequence of events inspired by air crash investigations though I didn't had the luxury of blackbox in my car, but I maintained a detailed account of events date wise.

On 3rd june 2011 Due to ongoing problem of left pulling the car had gone to Oberai motors noida where even the 1st service was done. The alignment problem was not sorted out & was told that the knuckle & left lower arm needs to be changed.

When the car came back it was sounding a creeching problem from left side when braked & even less noise continuously when running but to me it was audible & I took the car back to Oberai motors for a checkup on 4th June 2011.

The break shoes were checked & I was told there does not seem to be any noise & they are fine, I did not have anything to say but on my drive back the sound remained as it is & again next day 5th june 2011, I discussed this issue with GM of oberai motors who were suppose to change the knuckle & left lower arm, he assured me that there is nothing major issue with the car & I can drive it as I asked him to wait 1 week for getting the left lower arm replaced as I had many pending holiday for the family which due to left pulling alignment problems was postponed earlier.

On 6th june After we reached kathgodam I clearly felt the drag & loss of brake
Now my friend asked me how can the drag be there if there is a loss of braking to which I added more details.

While running in plains 2 times while overtaking I felt the car did not gave me enough power in the 4th gear @2200rpm & I gave up overtaking. All this while the ac was on with window glasses so we could not smell anything. Between haldwani & kathgodam there is a moderate height where for the 1st time I felt the car didn't brake as it should, I then later braked full to confirm this & felt that the brake was not powerful enough. I didn't stop & continued up to kathgodam & up the hill started.

This is when the same brake which were not powerful enough started dragging the left wheel & hence the power was getting lost due to which I have reported earlier that I was not able to shift to 3rd gear I had to climb in 2nd gear up to jeolikot.

Its when we started from jeolikot the ac was switched off & windows were rolled down due to cool breeze blowing. after few kms we could smell the brake shoe burning & in the mid of the road I could not stop the car & was waiting to get a space to park the car.

Before I could do that worst case already happened & that happened bcoz the engine was surely having enough power but the left front wheel was dragging with the brake shoe & that is what caused the power loss hence the left rim & the disk was giving smoke & smelling like hell & too hot to touch.

Now right up in nainital & during my test with manza for shooting video this brake issue was there & thus you see me revving up to 3000 rpm yet not able to have enough power. This issue was reported to 1800 tata complain number & I was told that the pickup car will come to toe the car. Next day I was busy to make arrangements for the family further travel hence put on hold the car towing to haldwani.

On June 8th we drove to haldwani very carefully with over 4-5 stops & could feel the smell of brake shoes continuously while going down in 3rd gear with not much of braking yet the brake shoes were smelling & the noise was clear heard as tuk ........tuk ........tuk.

When we reached haldwani at Gola Ganpathi motors I showed the video to DET at workshop & told him about the old brake issue he took a small test drive within a silent area of workshop & confirmed that YES there is indeed a problem with the adjusting rod which is making the noise on braking.

Brake pads were cleaned & rubbed with sand paper then a thin lining which originally was there between the disk & shoes were removed to sort out the problem. I drove back to delhi on 8th night itself without any problem or drag or any braking noise which was there.

So I can now conclude that its neither the clutch failure nor the power loss with the engine but something while checking for the alignment isuue was left unfinished not tightened properly hence the problem started at Oberai motors which also failed to detect the 2nd time I reported the problem to them on 4th june.

Now we took 4 friends in the car & went to basement parking which does have a 30-40° slope & the car is not showing any power loss. I need to test this tomorrow in workshop & a full loaded car at 45-60° steep slope to be sure. Now I think we found the cause of this so called clutch failure which appeared as power loss but in reality the brake shoes were getting hot due to drag on the disk thus causing the power loss.

Will confirm my report tomorrow after I test in the workshop.
 
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Will confirm my report tomorrow after I test in the workshop.
Its been long time while I have spent many days in the workshop I can confirm that indeed the above problem is solved & car power on slopes is not a problem it indeed was workshop created problem which they failed to figure out even when I reported it 2 times.

But my primary car left pulling problem remains as it is & I have updated that post too
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...sing-climb-uphill-loss-power-3.html#post83500
 
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I dont own a Manza but have driven a friend's Manza extensively. The turbo kicks in at 1800 rpm but spools up completely at 2000 rpm. The surge of torque after 2K rpm is good. Keep your car over 2K rpm on steep inclines. But climbing a slope would not be possible in 3rd gear as the rpm would be much lower than 2K.
 
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The surge of torque after 2K rpm is good. Keep your car over 2K rpm on steep inclines. But climbing a slope would not be possible in 3rd gear as the rpm would be much lower than 2K.
Ok so if I am driving on hill which is a gentle uphill road with 20-30degree upward will the car not move in 3rd gear at 2200rpm?

I had to go up in 2nd gear @3000rpm but that was bcoz the break shoe or disk was rubbing causing the friction & that problem seems either to be returning back or not fully solved.
 
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My car is manufactured in Feb 2011 1st week, I bought it on May 17th 2011.
Since my original tyre were changed I dont know but I have new tyre changed again in august 2011.
 
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My car is manufactured in Feb 2011 1st week, I bought it on May 17th 2011.
Since my original tyre were changed I dont know but I have new tyre changed again in august 2011.
As far as wheel alignment is concerned, did you try wheel rotation technique, which means front left tyre swaped on right rear and vice-versa to all 4 wheels?
 
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As far as wheel alignment is concerned, did you try wheel rotation technique, which means front left tyre swaped on right rear and vice-versa to all 4 wheels?
Yes that was tried the very 1st day 4 times different tyre were rotated.
IN total my car alignment has been checked over 40 times now & I have been saying this since day one that either tata guys don't know what alignment is or they are just shooting in dark in hope they will find "some" solution.

On my recent interaction with tata workshop the GM told me that the tata team which cam efrom pune to attend another customer's car having the same left pulling problem, they found that steering coil to be the root cause which was rotating the steering to the left instead keeping it straight. not sure about this claim as I have never ever needed to open the steering of any older cars I had.
 
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@ gypsy, I was aware of the left pulling problems faced by manza owners, I took delivery of my car only after5 km predelivery test drive,
I think that, we are near the diagnosis of ' basic cause 'of the 'left pulling' if not the solution, as I am not an automobile engineer.
Steps taken
1 )Today , I read your left drifting problem, I took out my manza, and tried to simulate the left pulling problem , and yes, I was able to simulate the problem.

2) went to a straight road for some distance, alongwith my friend,then I confirmed , that the steering wheel is in normal position, i.e. Tml logo in up right position, 4 spokes of the steering in lower half of the wheel (towards my belly,) .Then I stopped the engine ., removed the key.Obviously, steering wheel got locked, in the same position.

3) got down, saw that the tyres were in perfectly straight position, as expected.

4) Then I got inside , inserted key , started the engine, took off in a straight line with out touching the steering wheel, went further for 50 m. distance, slowly.
Steering position was maintained by the car herself.

4) Now , I decided to take a left turn of 130°(which was looking like'>' ) while taking turn , tyres completed 45 ° of the turn( confirmed by the friend from outside) , I found that steering wheel has completed 180° rotation!

5) moving the car furtther , I further rotated the steering wheel. My friend said that the 90° of turn is completed, I found that steering wheel has completed 360 ° of rotation.

6) I further moved the car, my friend said that the car has completed the turn. I saw that the steering wheel has completed 360°+360° of rotation. , And it was looking exactly the same as it is described in the begining.

7) I switched off the engine, took out key, steering wheel got locked. I got down , and found that the front tyres were 10° towards left.

8) We were shocked to see that steering wheel was in a perfectly normal position, tyres were expected to be in a straight position.but the tyres were not.

9)I got inside the car , started the engine, steering was untouched, unmoved.
started moving the car further,without touching the steering, car started pulling towards left !
10) Now,so as to run the car and tyres in straight line ,I had to rotate the steering back, in full 360° twice, in same direction., simultaneously moving, the car further.

11) Then the 'T' of the tml logo, again, came to upright, normal position, car started moving in a straight line without left pull!

Coming back soon...
 
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I could simulate the' left pulling ' type picture ( steering in normal position & tyres turned a bit to left) many times while parking in reverse.

Then I got hold of other manzas, could simulate , the 'left pulling ' situation many times while running the car at very low speed.

I am also going to td the Td cars of dealer. I also request you and other manza owners to take td at dealers silently.


Please remember , in above mention ed simulation s, the axis of rotation for 1) tyres 2) steering 3 ) car are different.

also, so as to turn the car, degree of rotation of each of 3 things is too much different. i.e. steering wheel can take , ALMOST two 360 ° turns in one direction

IT IS EASIER TO GET RID OF THE' LEFT PULLING' situation by just rotating the steering in
opposite direction for one full circle of 360°. , we can notice straightened, tyres , i.e. tyre move only 5° Steering(.This is done while engine is iddling or car is moving slowly, )



So question is that, why so many owners are not suffering from left pull of manza , why only gypsy? & few more.

So I went through ' gypsy left pulling threads' sulplemented by my observations about TASS mecanics handling the car in its premises. Came to following conclusion


to be contd...
 
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