Lightweight or Heavy Build?


Which is your choice?


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Thread Starter #31

raj_5004

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As you summarized, its all psychological.
The strength of any car, as long as it is a monocoque, will large depend upon the unibody, basically the engine subframe and A,B,C & D pillars. not on the door panels, fenders or hood. What matters is whats underneath the flimsy panels, and that is why the i20 and punto both have 5 star NCAP ratings.
Thats why i said, i like light cars, not flimsy ones.

Flimsy cars, on the other hand flex like crazy during hard cornering.
Yes, I do agree that safety of a car based on the strength of the panels or the "thud" of the doors is psychological. But as I mentioned above, I dont really believe that the Innova is a safe car either. I have seen many cases to believe that.

So, since I cannot judge or determine how well built a car's chassis or frame is, I might as well conclude by the strength of it's panel (which is my first point of contact in a car) about how safe it would be. In other words, even if some XYZ car does have a strong underpinning with a plastic body, it wont really matter because I would not dare to drive it at high speeds.

I will be confident that I can come out of a moderate intensity crash in a VW, Skoda, Fiat, the German trio, Volvo... and even the XUV and Aria. But I wont be confident enough about a Swift, Etios, etc.
 
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Watch the pic of my 2007 innova G4(no ABS & Airbags) crashed 4 years back,
8 on board every one survived , driver without seat belt too survived with major injuries.
I believe on toyota engineering , as many others do...
My customers prefer an innova on the comfort it gives,
and i believe they trust on toyota like company for the safety they offer too.

An example stated before on polo to bolero is apt for the discussion.
 

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Thread Starter #33

raj_5004

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Watch the pic of my 2007 innova G4(no ABS & Airbags) crashed 4 years back,
8 on board every one survived , driver without seat belt too survived with major injuries.
Glad to know everyone survived. But looking at the pictures, I do not see any high speed impact. Infact it seems the doors and panels were cut and pried open by rescuers to save the occupants... Correct me if I am wrong. The rest of the car is pretty much fine except the Driver's door, rear RHS door, front right wheel and right fender. Even the front cross member of the chassis is unaffected. By a 'big' accident, I mean a head on collision or a roll over or something similar.

I believe on toyota engineering , as many others do...
Thats fine bro, I respect your belief.

My customers prefer an innova on the comfort it gives,
and i believe they trust on toyota like company for the safety they offer too.
By customer, I am guessing you have a business of renting cars on hire. We are in the same business and you may very well know that customers like the Innova for it's space, comfort and ride.

Are they really bothered about safety? How many customers have enquired about which variant of Innova you will provide and will it have Airbags or ABS? Most of the tourist Innovas are the G or GX variant and not the top end V/VX with airbags.
 
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Bro,that accident was a total loss.
Shell,Chassis... all damaged.

The trust is on Toyota not on the extra safety mech's they provide on their top end variant,
Mine, the one displayed do not have an ABS & an Airbag.
People do believe on such reputed companies.

As per the discussion on the thread Qualis is more safer than innova, is it so?
Do any one think Toyota designed innova their more advanced car less safer than Qualis for the look,space,ride an comfort?
I do not.
 
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I think discussion is gonna become hotter, cause you people are not trying to understand what Raj bro is trying to say.

Let me give an example some time back an innove rammed into my punto from behind and there was minor dent in the boot of my punto but innova's front damaged heavily. Bonnet went inside nearly 1 and a half feet inside.

I was standing on a red light crossing, innova must be doing some 70-80 kmph. Now compare build quality of both the cars.
 
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Yes i agree with vivek,perfect example you gave

Similar accident i saw where a tourist tavera with front guard ramped into skoda laura,and to my surprise even the front guard had molded and went inside along the engine,i think the guard did more damaged to the engine but on other hand just a tinch to dent to skoda laura

Even i agree heavier vehicle has an added advantage of safety and will take lesser damage over light weight vehicles

But one more thing comes in my mind - what if when 2 same heavy build vehicle collide one behind other?
 
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Bro,that accident was a total loss.
Shell,Chassis... all damaged.

The trust is on Toyota not on the extra safety mech's they provide on their top end variant,
Mine, the one displayed do not have an ABS & an Airbag.
People do believe on such reputed companies.
.
Brother so far I agree with all excellent points you have presented and raised .

Yet I don't understand what point are you trying to make here with the words you have posted above ? How is safety related to what people trust ?

Having a safe car ( with safety tech and 5 * rating ) is like investing in insurance . In no way it assures you will escape death or massive injury .

Even a Volvo car laden with best safety tech can't assure you anything .

People had trust in satyam computers too , and so invested in it what happened in the end ?

People also trust maruti , but the fact is not all their cars are safe . People also trust and travel in autos but in no way they offer some real safety .

If you are making a point here that people prefer Toyota because of having great reputation as a car maker overall then that is a topic of a different thread
" which car maker you trust overall " .




Yes, I do agree that safety of a car based on the strength of the panels or the "thud" of the doors is psychological. But as I mentioned above, I dont really believe that the Innova is a safe car either. I have seen many cases to believe that.

So, since I cannot judge or determine how well built a car's chassis or frame is, I might as well conclude by the strength of it's panel (which is my first point of contact in a car) about how safe it would be. In other words, even if some XYZ car does have a strong underpinning with a plastic body, it wont really matter because I would not dare to drive it at high speeds.

I will be confident that I can come out of a moderate intensity crash in a VW, Skoda, Fiat, the German trio, Volvo... and even the XUV and Aria. But I wont be confident enough about a Swift, Etios, etc.
Raj I think topic has gone haywire . And with time ( since the thread had started long back ) people are interpreting it in different ways .

If one goes and checks the door of a duster and ecosport one will easily understand that duster doors are flimsy .
And that carries forward in the Latin safety test too the duster scores just 3 * and ecosport 4 .



Europe has a culture of making cars in a certain way and Japan , Korea , america have their own way . Reassuring thuds from the doors is a very European , American way while light doors , boot doors and front and back bumpers is a very typical Japanese and Korean characteristic .

Yet we must understand and take into consideration that all are making 5* safety rated cars too .

Light weight cars ( over all weight and also using light weight materials on bumpers ) in my opinion were also designed keeping pedestrian safety in mind and fuel efficiency ( and it is observed worldwide that japnese cars are most of the times preferred for the excellent fuel economy )

What the discussion started and the poll is asking here on this thread is " maybe " ( my guess ) which style the European or japnese style of car building you prefer ? Was that the intention to know what members prefer When this thread was started ?

But if we extend further and bring safety here or even associate the famous thud sound from doors with safety then we are drifting .

Are we discussing Skin panels here ? Or heavy chasis ? Or overall heavy weight ? Or heavy look ?

A car can be heavy and have no real safety and a light car can have the best safety built in and vice a versa . ( punto and swift one is heavy and one is light yet both are safe ) ( maruti 800 , omini and bolero , sumo here maruti cars are light and unsafe ,bolero and sumo are heavy and unsafe ) .

So imho the question is keeping the safety parameters constant I.e if both cars are 5* rated in safety , which would you prefer a light car ? or a car which gives you a reassuring thuds from it doors and boot or whose bonnet doesent bend easily when you punch .?

To make it more simple a Honda city or a vw Vento ? Toyota ALTis or skoda Laura ? Swift or polo . I10 or beat ?

Regarding safety here are some intresting topics

HowStuffWorks "Comparing Vehicle Size, Weight and Safety for Fuel Efficiency"

Light Weight, Not Small Size, Makes Cars Green and Safe | Autopia | Wired.com
 
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Thread Starter #38

raj_5004

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Bro,that accident was a total loss.[/B]
Shell,Chassis... all damaged.
Of course, it was a total loss because it is not feasible to repair such a badly mangled body. Even the chassis may have taken a hit, I do not have a reason to disbelieve you.

But, the impact seems to be from the side and I can even clearly see the side member of the chassis which has no damage. That is the reason I felt it was not a high speed impact.

The trust is on Toyota not on the extra safety mech's they provide on their top end variant,
Mine, the one displayed do not have an ABS & an Airbag.
People do believe on such reputed companies.
People trust Toyota for their "quality" and "comfort". That is not even remotely related to safety or in my case here - build strength.
As per the discussion on the thread Qualis is more safer than innova, is it so?
Do any one think Toyota designed innova their more advanced car less safer than Qualis for the look,space,ride an comfort?
I never mentioned anything like that! Qualis is equally flimsy.

If one goes and checks the door of a duster and ecosport one will easily understand that duster doors are flimsy .
And that carries forward in the Latin safety test too the duster scores just 3 * and ecosport 4 .
Yes, bang on.

This is what I mentioned in my previous posts. A flimsy body does not make a car unsafe nor does a strong body make a car safe. But, since it is the first thing we check to see how sturdy the car is (since we cannot practically check the underpinnings), it makes a huge difference since in most cases, a sturdy car does give our confidence a boost. Atleast it works in my case.


Light weight cars ( over all weight and also using light weight materials on bumpers ) in my opinion were also designed keeping pedestrian safety in mind and fuel efficiency ( and it is observed worldwide that japnese cars are most of the times preferred for the excellent fuel economy )
No doubts on that.

What the discussion started and the poll is asking here on this thread is " maybe " ( my guess ) which style the European or japnese style of car building you prefer ? Was that the intention to know what members prefer When this thread was started ?
This thread was never intended to bring safety into picture. I again repeat - a heavier car or a sturdier car is not always a safer car. I like sturdy cars because they are more suitable to withstand abuse in our city conditions and also as I mentioned above, since it gives me that psychological confidence in the car.

So imho the question is keeping the safety parameters constant I.e if both cars are 5* rated in safety , which would you prefer a light car ? or a car which gives you a reassuring thuds from it doors and boot or whose bonnet doesent bend easily when you punch .?
+100.

I would prefer a car with the 'thud from the door', I love it!

To make it more simple a Honda city or a vw Vento ? Toyota ALTis or skoda Laura ? Swift or polo . I10 or beat ?
Laura and Polo. But then I would also choose a City over a Vento for other reasons!
 
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I think discussion is gonna become hotter, cause you people are not trying to understand what Raj bro is trying to say.

Let me give an example some time back an innove rammed into my punto from behind and there was minor dent in the boot of my punto but innova's front damaged heavily. Bonnet went inside nearly 1 and a half feet inside.

I was standing on a red light crossing, innova must be doing some 70-80 kmph. Now compare build quality of both the cars.
The reason the innovas front crushed in was because of the crumple zones. They channeled the impact energy into themselves and got crushed/crumpled. had it not been that way, or if the innova had a burly rigid bull bar attached, the punto would have taken the brunt. Its all about channeling the energy.

For this discussion, ill post a video that should make things clear WRT to crumple zones.

Ladder Frame vs Monocoque

And another, just to see what high speeds can do to your car.

200 kmph crash
 
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Why are we discussing the safety of Innova here. Innova is built to pass Indian safety norms along with other Asean countries where it is sold.

@Raj, the discussion went to kerb weight as your opening post and the name of the thread lead us in that direction.

And people do have a misconception that a heavy car is well built, but that is not necessarily true.

AND as for the crumpling bonnets of the Innova when rear ending a Punto, well, for people to get some grey matters working, these days cars are built using plastics.Eg Mahindar XUV, front fenders (the part between front bumper, bonnet, wheel arch and the front door) are plastic.
 
Thread Starter #41

raj_5004

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@Raj, the discussion went to kerb weight as your opening post and the name of the thread lead us in that direction.

And people do have a misconception that a heavy car is well built, but that is not necessarily true.
I agree, a lot has happened since 2010 (the date of the opening post) and my views have entirely changed on this subject. I still like the THUD of the doors but dont really believe on the weight of the cars as a parameter for safety.
 
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This is the case of one of my forum friend Ajit.

This is what happened to my beloved exotic red 90 hp punto at a traffic signal on NH 45 in front of DB Hospital , Chrompet .My car got sandwich-ed between 2 lorries.

I was waiting at a traffic signal behind a lorry at a safe distance . I engaged the hand break and i was talking to my wife. After few seconds i saw through the rear view mirror that a tipper lorry was approaching fast .I also saw it coming and hitting my rear right side with a great force. Everything happened in few seconds . The force of the impact was such that my car went to lower part of the lorry
which was in my front . The impact was such that the rear part of the lorry was resting on the bonnet of my car .Its rear four wheels was not touching the ground .Both the air bags got deployed.I believe that my wife got survived just because of the airbag .
01.jpg

2012-08-07 13.17.12.jpg

2012-08-07 13.28.11.jpg

Now what you people say about heavily build cars.
 
Thread Starter #43

raj_5004

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+100.

Many people claim that cars with stronger panels do not crumple! Look at how the Fiat has crumpled yet not transferred the damage to the cabin.
 
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+100.

Many people claim that cars with stronger panels do not crumple! Look at how the Fiat has crumpled yet not transferred the damage to the cabin.
I saw you trying to make people understand this, buy everyone was just ignoring it. Even people ignored my personal accidental experience saying that toyota was having hi-tech front and all that is why bonnet went inside other wise punto could have been damaged heavily. I just wanna say to them that it can happen once but not twice. Have a look at the pics and decide yourself.

Lets see what reply comes[lol] to defend these light weight unsafe vehicles.
 

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