Does The Indian Standards of Build Quality Means Safety?

[Akins]

i read in some post that Europeans and italians are safest because they have solid build. but in my opinion, in india , every cars are unsafe.. because if there is solid build, then the internal structure is weak. because every cars in india are 50 kg or more lighter than the international versions. we have a common thought that tank like build means safety. i have some pictures of Japanese or italians crash in india. both are rear ended. the Japanese is sandwiched between truck and wall. but is in better condition than the Italian. this is what so called build quality?? other members, please give some importance on this..
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=210986&stc=1&d=1476021827
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=210987&stc=1&d=1476021827
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=210988&stc=1&d=1476021827
http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=210989&stc=1&d=1476021827

 

[bharathbigb]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

P.S - None of your links are working.So I have to answer it in a way of what I have learned and analyzed about this.And whatever image you were willing to show,Let me tell you,If I make an image out of it by imagining how IT COULD be,I will say that the Japanese Car was standing facing a wall,There was a truck behind it,And an Italian Car crashed on the truck and the impact was passed on to the Japanese car finally losing all the force of the impact reaching the wall....See,You have to understand that,The Italian Car (if it crashed at 60 Kmh/r) hitting the truck,Is taking much more impact than the Japanese car in front of the truck.The Truck is heavier than the Italian Car and it crashes on the Japanese Car,Which means that,The supposed impact of the crash passed onto the Japanese car is MUCH LOWER than what the Italian Car suffered from.And if you didn't know,Both Japanese and Italians are very high in quality.As an example,Very iconic cars like the Corrolla AE86,Mazda RX,Nissan GTR Godzilla...All of these monsters,Are Japanese :)

To sum it up short -Yes,Most Indian Cars have pathetic frame structural design,Lower Quality parts (leading to lower weight) is used to cut production costs and make more profits.Let's get that aside now.

The 'Average Joe' Indians (Who are sadly a much bigger majority than us)don't care about safety.This is why Maruti Suzuki is still sold like Hotcakes.They care about Pointless Features like Daytime LED DRLs,Keyless Entry and start in their cars.This is why Hyundai sells so well.They don't care about driving pleasure.This is why cars like Alto and it's segment tin cans are sold so well,They're small,practical in traffic.They care VFM and are very proud of that 'big car' feel for the money.This is why the KWID is selling really well.MOST importantly,They care about 'Kitna Deti Hai' meaning Mileage (Fuel Efficiency) much more than their own safety of their life.

So for selling more cars and making profit means they have to serve what the majority of the consumer EXACTLY Needs/asks for the price.In India (As I said above),The Average Joe needs Comfort,'Big Car' feel,Pointless Features like Keyless Entry,Start Stop button (Which,IMHO,Steals away a major part of what the beauty is of owning a car,Nothing like the feeling of snapping your key in and twisting it to start,And it is something I actually HATE about my Cruze and miss my Optra).

See m8,This is the problem.Car guys like us Chose the car(s) carefully,who love their cars,Take Care of it ourselves,Share priceless moments with it,Do DIYs (and sometimes screw it all up ) and preserve it like a life with feelings and stuff.People like us are MUCH SMALLER in population than the much larger people buying tin cans for travelling A to B and they don't even care for the car even half as nearly as much we do,Nor do they have any knowledge about them after a certain level.And they'ren't interested about learning them even half as much curious as we are.

If this changes anytime,If Consumers is aware that safety is very important and cars shouldn't be Tincans with Wheels,Nor look like a Lunchbox on wheels (TUV300).We will also see much better cars here,Which will be respected overseas too.And I am starting to have an optimistic thought that car makers like Tata are stepping up their game.Just have a look at how brilliant Tiago's Frame design is.The car will easily get atleast 3 stars with Airbags and ABS.

You get the TUV300 to the foriegn.Everybody will laugh at how pathetic that lunchbox on wheels looks (and drives) like.It won't even be allowed to run there.

Whereas Italians and Germans....Man,Those guys....In the current situation,Indians cannot even dream of making a car atleast half the great as their cars are.

But with that said,I FULLY Believe that Indian Car Makers HAVE the Expertise,Money,Talent to make something of very high quality and truly great to rival Italians,Germans,Japanese,British.etc.But without the need for such....And in the current condition of our roads (Trust me,It might seem something non-relevant,But it is highly relevant.Try running a Lambo here,The very next minute,You will be searching for the bumpers that got scrapped and ultimately fell off in the middle of the road somewhere)

In order to make that happen,We need someone with such passion,From our country.Someone who can make the money required for R&D and make a beast.

 

[Akins]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

sorry, i don't know what the problem is.. but links are working in my phone. by the way, both the crashes are separate. i just want to represent a real life crash to show build quality is not mean safety. because the tin can like build honda city fares much better than the solidly build fiat linea. sorry, but you are saying the same thing. in India, there us only a small difference between a solid build and a tin can, and that is also helpful only in 10kmph crash. i asked that if there is no structural strength, then why the thicker sheet metal? is this used to attract customers by saying solid build? and yes, you are right about the features given these days. they are useless. if the manufacturer would choose extra side airbags over keyless entry, electro chromic mirror etc, then there is atleat 20% decrease in accident death.

 

[bharathbigb]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

sorry, i don't know what the problem is.. but links are working in my phone. by the way, both the crashes are separate. i just want to represent a real life crash to show build quality is not mean safety. because the tin can like build honda city fares much better than the solidly build fiat linea. sorry, but you are saying the same thing. in India, there us only a small difference between a solid build and a tin can, and that is also helpful only in 10kmph crash. i asked that if there is no structural strength, then why the thicker sheet metal? is this used to attract customers by saying solid build? and yes, you are right about the features given these days. they are useless. if the manufacturer would choose extra side airbags over keyless entry, electro chromic mirror etc, then there is atleat 20% decrease in accident death.

OMG,Since when was Honda City a Tin Can-like m8 ? It's a Honda !!! and It has been KNOWN being so sturdy ever since the first generation City hit Indian Shores.It's Japanese Build.Again...Indian Fiats are built sturdily.Both City and Linea fair extremely well in Safety.And no,You haven't proven anything.

And again,No lol,There is no small difference in Tin Can vs Solid Build.There is a pretty huge difference.Go see a Euro Spec Suzuki Swift and check out our Swift and you'll know how much of a massive difference it is.

Thicker Sheet Metal on Top of the Frame implies to be strong on Dents.On a highspeed Crash most likely on Highways,These Body Panels have little effect on the impact.But it is still there though.With thicker sheet metal,They wish to imply that the car is solidly built.The Average Joe will fall for it,Car guys won't.We know what 'Solidly built' means.

Yes,They can choose to give us better safety instead of pointless features,But then again,The Average Joe will feel like the car has less (useless) features and less value for money and he/she will just go with which offers better (useless) features.

Though Structural Design matters most in case of an impact on how stable it is,How much impact it takes.etc,But Build Quality also matters Here is a small example of the Daewoo Matiz (I don't think you can remember this car,It was here 15 Years ago) The First picture is the one used on UK and Europe.The second one was using inferior quality for Rebadging and selling on Countries like India

P.S But surprisingly,Even the Lower Quality one passed the safety test and it was the FIRST and ONLY Car in India that has passed the safety test




Notice the crumple and the way the impact is transferred.
The First one's Crumple Zone has done it's job but the impact has entered the A Pillar
The second one's Crumple Zone did it's job too,But the amount of impact which entered the A Pillar is much more than the first car.How did this happen when both of these frames have EXACTLY the same design.Reason ? Build Quality

This could be best explained with a Bigger car,But this is what I have with me ATM

 

[Akash1886]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

i just want to represent a real life crash to show build quality is not mean safety. because the tin can like build honda city fares much better than the solidly build fiat linea.

Please understand here buddy, I own a Honda City, and mind you that has average structural strength. Honda CITY fairs well because of standard secondary safety/reactive safety features. If it was built like a tank with heavy and sustainable structure then it wouldn't return a good FE. Most cars in India fair well because of secondary safety devices only and not due to structure. Classic Example is Scorpio which failed crash test because of unstable structure. ABS/Airbags Vs Stable Cabin/Car Structure are two different aspects which are equally important when it comes to safety. A Car cannot survive on just one parameter of safety logically, but here in India, safety altogether is compromised. Also, sheet metal might not translate to safety always but that doesn't mean one has the right to give flimsy built cars. However, more than the manufactures we as customers are at fault for accepting mediocre products. We are the ones who willfully agree to compromise on our own safety.

in India, there us only a small difference between a solid build and a tin can, and that is also helpful only in 10kmph crash.

There is a difference in one more thing and i.e perception of people. We all praise Linea for eg, as a product, for it's driving dynamics etc but if given a choice between Honda CITY and Linea, buyer would jump for Honda CITY leaving Linea only because Honda CITY provides more aesthetically pleasing features than Linea.

i asked that if there is no structural strength, then why the thicker sheet metal? is this used to attract customers by saying solid build?

The cars which are genuinely built solidly, they have less buyers because those cars in general don't give desired FE. I had an Optra which met with an accident on NH8 with a Wagon R. My car after accident still drove back to office and then to Workshop where as Wagon R was immobile. But how many of us will buy a used Optra over Honda CITY? 1 or 2 only.

and yes, you are right about the features given these days. they are useless. if the manufacturer would choose extra side airbags over keyless entry, electro chromic mirror etc, then there is atleat 20% decrease in accident death.

Why will manufacturer choose safety over fringe features when customers themselves want their bums to be always heated with heated seats, their beverage cans to be chilled always in cooled glove box, their car's ambient lights turn it into a shady disco bar. The day we as customers start demanding safety over features, remember, we will get it for sure.

OMG,Since when was Honda City a Tin Can-like m8 ? It's a Honda !!! and It has been KNOWN being so sturdy ever since the first generation City hit Indian Shores.

With time, the perception/tastes change and the manufacturer accordingly adjusts himself to the changing requirements of the buyers. Gone are the days where there were just 2 cars to choose from now there are 2000 choices available. The rat race competition and sharp shift in customer needs have made manufactures to supplement the thin/unstable body structures of most of the cars with features like ABS and Airbags.

Note: Bharat Please Avoid using SMS language like "m8", Dat etc. in your future post!


Regards

Akash

 

[Akins]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

i own a honda city 2015 model and its body quality is no where near as europeans or italians. in fact it is equal or worst than my 2002 maruti suzuki 800. you are making a false assumptions that its a honda. honda quality was seen in civic but in city they used tin can metals, though it has 4 star ratings in 2 airbags virsion. yes, honda is playing a safe game between F.E. and safety. they don't compromise on structural strength of the car. what i want to say is if honda is making tin can like cars for better f.e. and performence without hurting safety, then some other manufacturers should learn from honda how to make safe budget cars. and euro spec swift has much better structural strength than the indian spec. euro spec is much safer because of better structural strength, not because of thick sheet metal. and guys, for your kind information, a car can survive a 100kmph test only if the structural strength is good, whether it has tin can like build or thick sheet metal.

 

[bharathbigb]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

Please understand here buddy, I own a Honda City, and mind you that has average structural strength. Honda CITY fairs well because of standard secondary safety/reactive safety features. If it was built like a tank with heavy and sustainable structure then it wouldn't return a good FE. Most cars in India fair well because of secondary safety devices only and not due to structure. Classic Example is Scorpio which failed crash test because of unstable structure. ABS/Airbags Vs Stable Cabin/Car Structure are two different aspects which are equally important when it comes to safety. A Car cannot survive on just one parameter of safety logically, but here in India, safety altogether is compromised. Also, sheet metal might not translate to safety always but that doesn't mean one has the right to give flimsy built cars. However, more than the manufactures we as customers are at fault for accepting mediocre products. We are the ones who willfully agree to compromise on our own safety.

There is a difference in one more thing and i.e perception of people. We all praise Linea for eg, as a product, for it's driving dynamics etc but if given a choice between Honda CITY and Linea, buyer would jump for Honda CITY leaving Linea only because Honda CITY provides more aesthetically pleasing features than Linea.

The cars which are genuinely built solidly, they have less buyers because those cars in general don't give desired FE. I had an Optra which met with an accident on NH8 with a Wagon R. My car after accident still drove back to office and then to Workshop where as Wagon R was immobile. But how many of us will buy a used Optra over Honda CITY? 1 or 2 only.

Why will manufacturer choose safety over fringe features when customers themselves want their bums to be always heated with heated seats, their beverage cans to be chilled always in cooled glove box, their car's ambient lights turn it into a shady disco bar. The day we as customers start demanding safety over features, remember, we will get it for sure.

With time, the perception/tastes change and the manufacturer accordingly adjusts himself to the changing requirements of the buyers. Gone are the days where there were just 2 cars to choose from now there are 2000 choices available. The rat race competition and sharp shift in customer needs have made manufactures to supplement the thin/unstable body structures of most of the cars with features like ABS and Airbags.

Note: Bharat Please Avoid using SMS language like "m8", Dat etc. in your future post!


Regards

Akash

Yes exactly.If the car is well built,It's FE Factor won't be favorable for it.Yes,Most Vehicles in India barely pass the test because they have Secondary safety features such as Airbags and ABS.It's about finding a balance on decent structure and decent safety.And ofcourse,It's the fault of consumers not caring about safety

OMG,We owned an Optra too !!! Amazing car.Was built like a tank.Pure Daewoo Engineering.Was a king on Highway stability and seats were just awesome and comfortable.Recently sold it to get it's successor,The Chevrolet(Daewoo) Cruze !
Miss that car so much,It's very rare to spot one these days.

Yes sure,I'm sorry,I shall stop using it.

 

[Akash1886]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

i own a honda city 2015 model and its body quality is no where near as europeans or italians. in fact it is equal or worst than my 2002 maruti suzuki 800. you are making a false assumptions that its a honda. honda quality was seen in civic but in city they used tin can metals, though it has 4 star ratings in 2 airbags virsion.

Absolutely true

yes, honda is playing a safe game between F.E. and safety. they don't compromise on structural strength of the car. what i want to say is if honda is making tin can like cars for better f.e. and performence without hurting safety, then some other manufacturers should learn from honda how to make safe budget cars.

See buddy, we aren't really sure of Honda's structural strength until a crash test is done on a the base variant which shouldn't be equipped with airbags etc. The point you are making is, to some extent I believe, is that secondary safety features like airbags should be made standard across all variants and model by all the car brands. Brands like VW, Toyota are doing so already.

euro spec swift has much better structural strength than the indian spec. euro spec is much safer because of better structural strength, not because of thick sheet metal.

And that is because MSIL well knows that EuroNCAP is there. If they built tin cans which they sell here, they'll end up loosing export licence. Also, if I am not mistaken, Made in India Celerio was not sold in Europe and it was allowed to be exported from Thailand.

and guys, for your kind information, a car can survive a 100kmph test only if the structural strength is good, whether it has tin can like build or thick sheet metal.

A Stable Structure is the foremost requirement. The center of gravity is to be correctly balanced as well for a stable structure.

Regards

Akash

 

[bharathbigb]

i own a honda city 2015 model and its body quality is no where near as europeans or italians. in fact it is equal or worst than my 2002 maruti suzuki 800. you are making a false assumptions that its a honda. honda quality was seen in civic but in city they used tin can metals, though it has 4 star ratings in 2 airbags virsion. yes, honda is playing a safe game between F.E. and safety. they don't compromise on structural strength of the car. what i want to say is if honda is making tin can like cars for better f.e. and performence without hurting safety, then some other manufacturers should learn from honda how to make safe budget cars.

Lol,Worse than your 2002 Maruti 800 ?! And which Europian/Italian car were you comparing it with ? And if you weren't satisfied by the build quality,Why did you get it over the Fiat ?

Honda never has and never will use Tin Can Metal for any of their cars.

Absolutely true

See buddy, we aren't really sure of Honda's structural strength until a crash test is done on a the base variant which shouldn't be equipped with airbags etc. The point you are making is, to some extent I believe, is that secondary safety features like airbags should be made standard across all variants and model by all the car brands. Brands like VW, Toyota are doing so already.

Regards

Akash

Absolutely true ? Mr.Aakash,How is it worser than a Maruti 800 built 13 years ago ?

 

[Akins]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

Absolutely true ? Mr.Aakash,How is it worser than a Maruti 800 built 13 years ago ?

see buddy, don't pass coments without knowing anything. honda quality has gone when tha last civic was coming out from factory. and yes i own honda over fiat.. did you notice where i lives. sivasagar,,i.e. assam. man common, if fiat is struggling with ASS in big states like mumbai, delhi, then think about assam.

 

[bharathbigb]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

see buddy, don't pass coments without knowing anything. honda quality has gone when tha last civic was coming out from factory. and yes i own honda over fiat.. did you notice where i lives. sivasagar,,i.e. assam. man common, if fiat is struggling with ASS in big states like mumbai, delhi, then think about assam.

Alright mate.I own a Cruze which is a Tier Higher than your car anyways.I'll leave the talking to you guys :)

 

[Akash1886]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

Lol,Worse than your 2002 Maruti 800 ?! And which Europian/Italian car were you comparing it with ?

I will give you a better example, try pressing the door of 2015 Honda City with a thumb and then try doing same with a Punto or early 2000 era Lancer. You'll know what we are talking of.

And if you weren't satisfied by the build quality,Why did you get it over the Fiat ?

People complain about shortfalls of every car. No car can be 100% perfect. So even with the imperfections, in today's time, it is bit of a difficulty to live without a car.

Honda never has and never will use Tin Can Metal for any of their cars.

Have you got the 1st hand experience of a crash in Honda?

Absolutely true ? Mr.Aakash,How is it worser than a Maruti 800 built 13 years ago ?

13 years ago, there were many more conditions in which cars built that time were sufficient enough. Traffic was less, commuting time was less and competition was still less so that time the cars were comparatively better in built than what we get today. Try to compare a Alto 800 with Maruti 800 of 2002-03 year.

Alright mate.I own a Cruze which is a Tier Higher than your car anyways.I'll leave the talking to you guys

This is the most stupid remark ever made on TAI. If you can't give logical reasoning you should not make such loose comments. Absolutely absent minded remark. Not at all in good spirit.

Akash

 

[bharathbigb]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

I will give you a better example, try pressing the door of 2015 Honda City with a thumb and then try doing same with a Punto or early 2000 era Lancer. You'll know what we are talking of.

People complain about shortfalls of every car. No car can be 100% perfect. So even with the imperfections, in today's time, it is bit of a difficulty to live without a car.

And who are you to say that whether he has a poor taste? DO Not make personal remarks! Have you got the 1st hand experience of a crash in Honda?

13 years ago, there were many more conditions in which cars built that time were sufficient enough. Traffic was less, commuting time was less and competition was still less so that time the cars were comparatively better in built than what we get today. Try to compare a Alto 800 with Maruti 800 of 2002-03 year.

This is the most stupid remark ever made on TAI. If you can't give logical reasoning you should not make such loose comments. Absolutely absent minded remark. Not at all in good spirit.

Akash

Oh OK,I'm sorry :( Won't do that again.I never knew that cars a decade old were better built than today's cars

 

[Akins]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

guys, i don't want this thread to become a zone of war. just want your opinions. in india, the quality of the car dips than their international virsions. for e.g. indian honda.city is almost 50 kg lighter than the thai spec. vw vento is almost 40 kg lighter than the euro spec. it is same for every cars selling in india. i just want to know that if the solid build quality of Europeans make in india specs are false short in terms of safety. because they have the solid build right. but they have to play with the structural strength if they want to looses out 40 kg.

 

[Akash1886]

Re: Are the Indian standards of build quality means safety?

I never knew that cars a decade old were better built than today's cars

With the kind of requirements, technology available and market condition, the earlier generation cars were not really high-tech but in terms of weight and sheet metal thickness they were actually heavier than today's most of the cars.

in india, the quality of the car dips than their international virsions. for e.g. indian honda.city is almost 50 kg lighter than the thai spec. vw vento is almost 40 kg lighter than the euro spec. it is same for every cars selling in india. i just want to know that if the solid build quality of Europeans make in india specs are false short in terms of safety. because they have the solid build right. but they have to play with the structural strength if they want to looses out 40 kg.

Friend, I began a similar thread sometime back: http://www.theautomotiveindia.com/f...ars-domestic-variants-vs-export-variants.html

A recent example I can share is of the Renault Kwid, the Brazilian spec Kwid is heavier than the Indian one in weight. The main reason is to give better performance by reducing weight. FE is the prime concern as I said due to which the body weight is reduced by most of the manufacturers here.

Regards

Akash